Benjamin Law, writer and broadcaster

Benjamin Law is a writer, broadcaster, television creator and producer, and refined homosexual about town in Sydney. He's also a former competitor on Australian Survivor – important.

If you haven't already, I implore you to read some of Ben's sharp, warm, illuminating writing.

There's Gaysia, an exploration of LGBTQ+ cultures across South East Asia; The Family Law, a memoir of his childhood that he adapted into three seasons of television; Growing Up Queer, a collection of stories from LGBTQ Australians, and Wellmania, the Netflix comedy series he co-created and wrote.

Not only is he insufferably talented, but he's a sheer joy to converse with. We discuss music by his partner Scott Spark, Beyoncé, and Rufus Wainwright, with some dabbling in Björk and Kylie along the way.

The other bits:

• Tracks of Our Queers is recorded and edited between Gadigal and Ngarigo land by me, Andy Gott
• Listen to all of the music discussed in the pod with the Selections from Tracks of Our Queers playlist
• You can email me with your own queer tracks or guest recommendations at tracksofourqueers@gmail.com
• Our beautiful artwork is illustrated by Luke Tribe (Ben's friend!)

Transcript

Benjamin Law
===

Andy Gott: [00:00:00] Benjamin law is to drastically oversimplify things, a broadcaster and writer in Sydney, Australia. But he prefers to call himself a hot mess. So let's go with that. He's written plays, TV, screenplays, investigative essays, and for magazines and newspapers. I first read his travelog Gaysia back when I first moved to Australia. A journey through the LGBTQ cultures and experiences across Southeast Asia. 

And I fell in love. With his accessible yet deliciously, incisive, observation, or writing style. He adopted another of his memoirs, the family law into a wildly successful SBS sitcom, which you continue to write and produce for over it's three seasons Just last year. 

He co-created the Netflix comedy. Well, mania. and perhaps most fabulously he's a former cast member on Australian survivor. 

He actually has my dream job. A bit of this, a bit of that. And he's been on my list of dream guests for this podcast. Since I started planning it out. I can confirm he did not disappoint. 

[00:01:00] Tracks of our quiz is produced, presented and edited by me. 

So if you do enjoy this episode and feel compelled to share me your coffee, you can do so via the link in the show notes, every penny goes to editing and hosting costs and it's deeply appreciated. Over to Benjamin. 

All right, Benjamin Law, welcome to Tracks of

Our Queers. 

Benjamin Law: Ah, thanks Andy, such a pleasure to be here!

Andy Gott: we have actually met before, well, we've been in the same room before

and it was,

Benjamin Law: smelled each other's

musk. 

Andy Gott: I don't know how I'd feel if you could have smelled my musk because it was, with 8, 000 other people, watching Jennifer Coolidge and Mike White be interviewed

about the White

Benjamin Law: Oh

Andy Gott: it was you doing 

Benjamin Law: an interesting musk. There was a collective musk that evening. Wasn't that a great night though? It was like so happily unhinged. I mean, Jennifer Coolidge was just bringing the Coolidge essence on. And like, I don't know if you agree with me about my recollection of that night, Andy is like [00:02:00] Jennifer Coolidge is exactly how you would expect Jennifer Coolidge to be right.

All of her, all of her pearls of wisdom about, you know, the, you know, the, the key to confidence is just seeing lot of bad stuff. 

Andy Gott: I remember that. 

Benjamin Law: You know, 

everything she said was so quotable. I'm so glad that you were 

Andy Gott: Yeah, yeah, I mean, well, Sydney's queer community was there in

force,

Benjamin Law: 100 percent of

Andy Gott: I had friends in the UK be like, why were Mike White and Jennifer Coolidge doing that in Sydney? Why aren't they doing it here? And I was like, I don't know. why were they doing it? 

Benjamin Law: It was the Vivid Festival, but the other answer is money. I mean, the answer is always money. this Vivid Festival would have had that money to lure them over to have a conversation with 

Andy Gott: Yes. just as I'm sure you prepared, enormously for that interview, I've prepared

enormously for yours. So the tables have

Benjamin Law: Oh, good

Andy Gott: today. 

Benjamin Law: I apologize for you having to go that deep.

Andy Gott: What is your earliest [00:03:00] musical memory?

Benjamin Law: Oh, that's such a good question. we weren't a huge music listening family. we always had the radio on in the background, but then I remember when me and my siblings started to get obsessive, it was like taping the top 40 from FM radio onto cassette. This really shows how old I am. And when we.

Andy Gott: for our younger

listeners? 

Benjamin Law: stuck a cartridge, also known as a cassette, which would then manually wind the tape for your cassette player or Walkman to listen to. Use it in a sentence today. Cassette. you know, when you got a tape, you could pause it, and then you could re record the new bit, and you felt like a DJ, really.

You felt like you were a professional, radio person. I remember doing that with my siblings, and things like Write Said Fred. And [00:04:00] the Cranberries Snow's Informer, you know, those were big, indelible tracks of my youth. the first records that I ever bought, and I'm pretty sure they were on CD Andy, were Mariah Carey's Music Box, Billy Joel's River of Dreams, and Brian Adams, whatever that big Brian Adams record was, 

and I ordered these CDs off the back of TV week magazine because you could just Send money through the post or something and they would send you my god pre internet It's like it's like we're living in the Jurassic era. It's so strange

Andy Gott: spectrum of musical distribution happened in the last

20 to 30 years 

Benjamin Law: Mariah Carey's Music Box was something that I then went on to disown because I grew up in very homophobic [00:05:00] Queensland in the 1990s. But now I look back at my first record purchase, Mariah Carey's Music Box, and I'm like, that album slaps. I'm really happy and thrilled to reclaim it.

Andy Gott: actually have a question for you on that very topic Um, you know, I was gonna ease you in with some light fare But I was listening to an interview with yourself the other day right back from 2019 Which feels like it was last year, but was actually six years ago just for anyone who's unsure And you discussed, it was with Mia Friedman, and you discussed your recognition of an internalized homophobia in your younger years around campness and camp men specifically.

And I won't ask you to retread that exact point now, but it had me reflecting on my own journey with internalized homophobia and my music tastes evolving through the years alongside that. And the [00:06:00] figurehead for that with me is

Kylie. I initially shunned her for so long before deciding to like her, ironically, and then approving of some of her stuff, as if she was

waiting for 

my approval, and then accepting that I was completely obsessed and

she is a 

goddess, and

Benjamin Law: But you're a proper Kylie fan. You're a stan.

Andy Gott: And, um, I believe, looking back, that was directly tied to my own sense of self and acceptance of campness in general. And I was going to ask you if you could relate to any of that in your musical tastes, but Mariah Carey music box, I don't know if that fits into that

category or not. Mmm. 

Benjamin Law: you know? Like, Mariah has um, she has resilience and stamina when you think about a career in pop, right? There are some women in pop who really fall by the wayside really easily [00:07:00] because the industry is sexist and misogynist And ageist, right? And the women who've survived that and have survived, you know, all other horrors that people music industry deal with, you know, plenty have not.

Whitney, Amy Winehouse, you know, but the women who have, like Mariah, she is killing it. If anyone hasn't read her memoir, um, I think it was, what, The Meaning of Mariah? Is that what it's called? Such a good memoir. It's a really excellent memoir. And so, to your point about internalized homophobia, I think When you marinate in a society and you're raised in a society where homophobia is the air that you breathe, you have to untangle so many things, right?

And one of the things is untangling, yes, your sexuality, and you're attracted to dudes. Like, that's a first step. But then I do think a lot of us spend Quite a lot of the rest of our lives trying to really untangle the other stuff beyond that. And it's the stuff that other [00:08:00] people enforce on you. So the sense of, oh, we don't mind gay people, but just don't rub it in our faces and shove it down our throats. Now we love having it shoved down our throats, obviously, but what they're saying there is we don't like people making a point of it. We don't like people who are obvious about it. And maybe you've met these kind of queer people or gay men yourself, but those kinds of men who say, oh, like, my sexuality is the least important thing about me.

It's the least interesting thing about me. Like, I just happen to fuck guys. And Everything else about me is basically straight. And I feel like a lot of us went through that phase that, uh, some queer people are still in, you know, queer people who don't want to be attached to a community or a culture or a history that they are tied to, but to own that and to claim that for yourself might be uncomfortable because the rest of society has rejected it for so long.

You know, men [00:09:00] who like Kylie. Men who like Mariah? Like, what kind of man does that make you? So I spent a lot of my late teens, early 20s listening to a lot of white indie rock, and there is a lot of great white indie rock out there. I just thought to myself, this makes me better. It doesn't make me that kind of gay. And it does. It's um, it's a kind of self harm that we inflict on ourselves. That said, the other night I put on Wilco's Yankee Hotel Foxtrot and I'm like, wow, that was a part of that phase, but that record's still pretty good. Like I'm also cherishing white indie rock straight adjacent Benjamin as well.

I'm making space for 

Andy Gott: We have space for it all. And yeah, I mean, beautifully articulated. And I, when you said you, you might know queer people who are like that. I, I happen, I feel like [00:10:00] I'm surrounded by incredibly rich, um, experienced, mature queer people in my life. But. I know that we're all different, um, stages of our journey as well.

And, and even I say this to myself, someone who feels like they've been really happy with themselves for maybe even half of my life at this point, we've all got a bit more to go. We've all got a, still a bit of, of unpacking to, to go through

and 

that's okay. 

Benjamin Law: That's totally okay. And I feel like, big picture, we, to be fair to ourselves, have also experienced probably stages of arrested development that straight people haven't had to think about. You know, we probably had our first kiss, or our first fuck, much later in life, or we've had to delay what that looks like for us, or figure out how we feel about those things. a lot of us, not all of us. but a lot of us. And I also think those complicated feelings that we have towards like queer art or women in music or a certain femininity or non binary ness that comes to the [00:11:00] music that we like, a lot of that resistance to that also just comes from sexism and misogyny. You know, the idea that Okay, well, you're a man and you are gay, but why would you reduce yourself to being queer? Like a woman. that's that's where it comes from. it's it's homophobia tied in with 

Andy Gott: Absolutely. Yeah. And interestingly, Music Box by Mariah Carey is not your album selected, but I'm glad that

we squeezed it in. 

Benjamin Law: go listen to it in your own time, people. 

Andy Gott: Now you, um, you come from a relatively large family, three sisters and a

brother, 

correct? 

Benjamin Law: Well researched. I'm impressed, Andy. Welcome to the family. 

Andy Gott: the the sharing of music across siblings can be equally formative and fractious.

Did your siblings influence your own taste at all? What music were you sharing across siblings, if so?

Benjamin Law: Yes and no. I feel like I thought my two older siblings were like, why would I listen to? like that music you're listening to? And I still think that [00:12:00] frankly, and I say that love now. So my brother listened to like a lot of, grunge rock and Nirvana.

I actually do have time for Nirvana, but, um, back then I was like, Oh my gosh,this is laborious. No, my sister listened to like a lot of Australian pub rock, like, Diesel? Johnny Diesel? I don't know if that was a guy who was on your radar. But I feel because I'm the middle child, what my responsibility was, was to heavily influence my two younger sisters, and I did that with pride and aggression.

So, I feel like I really got my younger sister Tammy into PJ Harvey. and I feel like I got both of my sisters into Björk, uh, and we all went to Western Australia together to see Björk when she was out. Oh, did you go see Björk in 

Western 

Andy Gott: was incredible. 

Benjamin Law: Oh, those flutes. Don't you sometimes still think about the flute arrangement on Isabel? Oh, [00:13:00] 

shivers. so good, so good.

Strange venue, but really 

Andy Gott: Yes. The Bjork Warehouse they built. 

Yes. 

Benjamin Law: Bjerk at Bunnings, Perth. Hahaha. So yeah, I feel like I absorb some things from my siblings, but mostly I try to um, be the older sibling who other people absorbed 

Andy Gott: love that. okay, so you grew up in the 

Sunshine Coast 

Benjamin Law: Mhm, 

Andy Gott: you moved to Sydney at some point. Mm hmm. Now, when, when I meet a queer who embarked on that, um, legendary journey from the, the small town to the big smoke, I'm keen to know if there's any particular music that reminds you of that time, because it's just so formative for us.

Benjamin Law: Mmm, that time of transition between places. So, I feel like I had a kind of slow southward trajectory, Andy, in that [00:14:00] I started on the Sunshine Coast, a very surfy kind of town. That is not my vibe. Um, though I love the beach, but then I moved to the big smoke of Brisbane. You know, Brisbane is actually such a progressive stronghold in Queensland because what people don't understand is everyone escapes their hometown in Queensland and they all flock to Brisbane. so Brisbane's soundtrack was very much Björk, PJ Harvey, Tori Amos, um, you know, the three women who posed on Q Magazine together in the you 

Andy Gott: I used to, I used to lie in bed fantasizing about a redo of that cover, like 20 years on, these three incredible women, I mean, imagine, it would just blow minds, but yeah. 

Benjamin Law: Yes. And they're still making incredible music, all three of them. think Jeff Buckley, I mean, I think a lot of people cringe about Jeff Buckley now because he's so earnest and angel voice, but turn him on sometime.

Like he still really holds up. And I think there was something about [00:15:00] Jeff Buckley's music, even though he wasn't technically queer, that felt queer adjacent. The idea of a man who sang like Nina Simone sometimes and, and launched into falsetto as well. I also like that about Radiohead, again, a very straight band, but you know, the way that Tom York sings is very choir boy like, and wasn't afraid to, you know, Sound quite feminine

so those kinds of bands and outfits really date me obviously, but I think the other big thing that was, legitimately and literally queer was Rufus Wainwright and discovering this amazing artist from Spin Magazine. I used to order in Spin Magazine from the US where I read Q from the UK, Mojo and all of those kinds of magazines [00:16:00] because the internet was so slow.

And Spin Magazine had this one page kind of interview with this cute guy from Montreal who had this amazing Deranged haircut and huge grin. And he just talked about, you know, being gay so matter of factly. And I'm like, I don't know this guy. I have no idea how to even hear his music. So I went down to the local music store that imported CDs.

These two British women who imported CDs over, they're like, Oh, I've never heard of this person. 

and. I listened to it and. It was stunning. It was his self titled debut album and blew my little gay mind. 

Andy Gott: now, he's the artist that you've picked. So we'll come back to him very soon But I love that story. 

It's very difficult for me to keep my questions contained to music considering you've got Created, written for, produced TV shows for Netflix and SBS.

You've written multiple books with regular national columns on the side. You podcast yourself, you [00:17:00] broadcast, you present. It's

exhausting! 

Benjamin Law: Yeah. It's insufferable. Who is this guy? He sounds deeply annoying. Like, Stop. Stop. Whoever this 

Andy Gott: But you also managed to find time to survive, as in go on Australian Survivor.

Benjamin Law: I love that you're bringing 

this up. Yeah, go for it. I 

Andy Gott: in a desperate attempt to connect that to this podcast theme, did you miss music on

the 

island? 

Benjamin Law: I thought you were about to say, in a desperate attempt for attention, is that why you weren't on Survivor? And the answer is absolutely yes. for the people who are listening who also love Australian Survivor, they'll know that I was on season eight, Heroes vs Villains, ostensibly as a hero with villainous traits, Andy. And it's funny because before you go on that show, you spend like a week in quarantine where you do like safety protocol. You're not allowed to talk to each other. And you're given all of the information you need to not kill yourself on the island. they're not giving you any hacks or anything like that. It's just basically like, here is O, H [00:18:00] and S for a deserted island in Samoa. Okay, now go and start voting each other off in a psychologically horrific way. so I missed a lot of things out there. I miss my partner. I miss my family. I miss my food. But one of the things I also missed was music, and it's one of the things that I bonded over with, Another contestant called Nina Twine who was our sole contestant and she loves music and we bonded over the fact that Beyonce's Renaissance had only just come out before we flew to Samoa and we would We'd only been able to listen to it like maybe twice all the way through and I'm like, dude, I really suspect it's a banger of an album, but I haven't been able to sit down with it properly to really process it. And what was really nice was that on the other side of Survivor, when a lot of us met up in the real world, Nina Twine and I and a lot of the other contestants, past and present, went out to a karaoke bar together and we [00:19:00] smashed tracks from

Renaissance, 



Andy Gott: we talked earlier about Mike White, creator, writer of The White Lotus, and something that some people still don't know is how many seasons of the US Survivor

he competed on. As a bonafide Australian Survivor, did he give you any top tips for a future All Stars

return? 

Benjamin Law: that's so funny because we did end up talking about Survivor a lot. This was like backstage and what we managed to do, Andy, is what happens when former Survivor contestants or Survivor fans get together and start talking about Survivor, which is we alienate each other. Every single person around us, it's like we've dropped our guts with the most horrific fart possible.

People back away slowly and then you look up and you're like, Oh, you know, from that trouble council on episode on season seven, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And you look up and everyone's just formed so much distance [00:20:00] from you. So Mike and I went really deep, 

um, 

Andy Gott: Jennifer doing at this time? Was

she just off? 

Benjamin Law: I think Jennifer had backed off into a different room, if not planet, um, at that stage.

So yeah, it's really fun talking to Mike White about Survivor because not only did he compete and, spoiler alert, come runner up in one of his seasons, but Um, he's also been a consultant to the US version of the show as well. So I think there are very few casual Survivor fans. Like if you watch Survivor, you might not have seen every season.Like I haven't gone that deep. Like there are 50 billion seasons of the US one. There are in South Africa and New Zealand and. The UK now, I'm not watching those. but but there is a part of you that remembers things like sports and talks about it, like the way straight people talk about sport.

My theory is Survivor is gay sport. Even if you're not, even if it doesn't have queer people on it, there's just something about it that's 

Andy Gott: there is something queerabout [00:21:00] Survivor, and I'm not an expert at all. I've barely watched any episodes, but I've just been in theand I spent some time with some friends. Who were telling me their passion for specifically Australian Survivor. They were like, tell me you've watched it. And I'm like, no, I actually haven't watched any of it.

And they were just horrified. They were like, it's one of the greatest things Australia has ever done because they don't watch the American one. They insist that the Australian one's better. But beyond that, I know so many queer people who are so passionate

about Survivor. 

Benjamin Law: I mean, first of all, there's a lot of shredded men right? So, like, I mean, eye candy. Uh, one of the reasons I got screen time was basically me just offering ongoing commentary where I borderline sexually harass the straight men on my tribe. I'm just like, they're pieces of meat, let me tell you about the cuts so there is that. The, the aesthetic is there. You know, like, I don't really follow that many SportsAndy, but like one I loved growing up was, say, gladiators. You know, it had leotards and muscles and showbiz. And I feel like any kind of [00:22:00] sporting competition that intersects with an element of showbiz and drama, is where the queers are at. 

Andy Gott: we'd better get on with the reason that we're here to talk, you have chosen, um, a track, an album, and an artist, and I'd love to know. What is the track that you've picked and why? 

Benjamin Law: Huh. This is me being very sentimental. Uh, this is a track actually written by my boyfriend and we've been together for a billion years. Um, my boyfriend is a lot of things. He's a radio producer, a public broadcaster manager, a strategist. Uh, And uh,he has also been like a touring artist, a singer songwriter as well.

So there was a period in his life where he was like living in New York and LA and writing and recording songs and touring with, uh, a lot of singer songwriters [00:23:00] who are still smashing out stuff now. And, his, One of his records, he wrote this Christmas carol, which kind of sounds a little bit cheesy, but you know, Christmas carols are either the most horrific thing you've ever heard, or the most beautiful, right?

There's no in between. And he kind of wrote this Christmas song That was a bit of a love song for us, but also told the story of my family. And I feel like when I hear this song, I think he doesn't need to give me a Christmas present for the rest of my life because just writing this song, um, which is so beautiful that we ended up using the melody of it in our TV show.

The family law, um, is the most enduring gifts that anyone could have given me.

Andy Gott: [00:24:00] That's so beautiful. 



And how old were you when you

met?

Benjamin Law: this is disgusting, but we knew each other at school. Which sounds predatory because I'm older than him, but um, we went to a really big school, one of those schools where if you're in another year level you might as well be in a different cosmos. but then after I finished my first year of uni, I came back and worked for my father in his restaurant over the summer, and this boy that I knew from high school was also working there, named Scott.

And I was like, wow, he looks different. He smells different. He feels different. yeah, yeah, exactly. And so I thought I will get this boy drunk at some stage. And I did, um, consensually.

Andy Gott: I, I mean, that's just so beautiful. And I've I've been with my boyfriend for, for six years and I think that's pretty good going but as you've said yourself many times, that [00:25:00] is an extraordinary amount of time to spend with a partner in your life and yeah when I think about the the lives that you've both lived in that time to go from teens at school all through your 20s which for me were Torturous at times in trying to understand who I was as a person and, 

I just think it's remarkable and wonderful to have been Gone on those adventures with one person and to have, I'm sure it's not always been easy, and it's been a bit of a roller coaster at times, but, Yeah, I guess that popped into my head when you mentioned that he was touring in New York and around the world and so you were together at that

time, I 

presume. 

Benjamin Law: Yeah, we had a lot of phases that were long distance and, you know, when you travel the world and you go through chapters of your life, you do change, you do grow. And we were even having this conversation the other night, which is like, we have each changed a lot since 

we first knew each other, right?

Like we've changed in look, we've changed in values, we've changed in experience. [00:26:00] And yet, something is still anchoring us, uh, together. I mean, I would say it's just him, actually. He's just really easy to love and, very good in a crisis. but in those times that we've been apart, I remember when he was recording this particular song, the Last Christmas.

I mean, it was that song and other songs where he would send me like demos, you know, like the time difference between New York and Brisbane, where I was living is so different. So I would wake up the next day and find a demo in my inbox of like these melodies that were incredible. so I still think about that era of our lives where we were like homesick for each other. he was sending me these kind of like musical dispatches, sometimes on a piano,on like a harpsichord that he found in the middle of New York somewhere, or some sort of like strange instrument in a warehouse he'd discovered in LA. yeah, it was very cool hearing correspondence from his adventures that 

way. 

Andy Gott: [00:27:00] I can imagine that is just breathtakingly romantic. At any age to receive such demos in your inbox. the track is beautiful. It's to my ears, it was a bit of Sufjan Stevens, a bit of Regina Spector, very kind of melancholy, sweet in that lovely Christmas way. And like you said, it's probably the only gift he does

need 

to give you now for Christmas. 

Benjamin Law: Exactly. I mean that as well. I'm just like, yeah, I can't 

outdo that gift. 

Andy Gott: okay, so you're in a helicopter on the way to this, where where was Survivor? where where was it exactly?

Benjamin Law: It was in Samoa, and it was the first commercial flight that landed in Samoa after lockdown, actually. So like, Not just a big deal for us, but it was randomly a big deal for the country. Like the ambassador was there to greet us as we landed.

Andy Gott: Now, what's playing in your ears? You, how many [00:28:00] plays did you get in? Did you say two full plays of this album?

Benjamin Law: Oh, Renaissance. I probably, yeah, heard it twice and I'd heard Break My Soul, like the first single from it a few times. And I thought, you know, that's a cool track. That's a radio friendly track, but. You know, after Lemonade and some of the songs that came off Lemonade, I was like, oh, my head was still very much in that phase 

of Beyond Sounds.

Like, oh, I'm a little bit agnostic about Break My Soul. I don't know what this means about the rest of the album, but anyone who knows Renaissance, which is everyone, knows that the songs on that album are designed in context and in a very particular sequence. So when Break My Soul charges in from the song, [00:29:00] And before the song that follows it, there is this dance club sequence.

Like it tells this incredible story of a night out at the club. That's very queer informed by Beyonce's understanding of the queer community, the black queer community, the black trans community as well. it's an education to dance to, and it's one of the most remarkable records that 

exists, I think.

Andy Gott: I couldn't agree more, to be honest. I felt exactly the same when Break My Soul came out. Just like you said, you were in Lemonade. I have consecutively been more impressed with Beyonce's work with each album, probably since her um, self titled.

And I've had guests who have made compelling cases for earlier albums in her. Um, of, uh, if [00:30:00] that's how you pronounce it, um, particularly B Day. Someone, someone went on record and said, you know, that B Day the, the root of everything we know and love about Beyonce now. but, um, from Lemonade onwards, certainly I just had this enormous respect for her artistry. And, also shout out to the Lion King soundtrack. Like incredible album as well. 

Benjamin Law: But I think you and I are on a similar Beyonce journey, like Lemonade. I always liked Beyonce, always appreciated Beyonce. I would always smash Beyonce at karaoke but then Lemonade, I'm like, You know, there's an artist that you like and listen to at the club or the radio versus the artists that you want to experience the album from beginning to finish and Lemonade made Beyonce that artist for me. then Renaissance I also picked because I think it also represents a very specific chapter in my very queer life, which is, um, When I turned 40 a couple of years ago, uh, Renaissance was kind of the soundtrack to a phase of my life where a lot of us people, mainly queers, but also queer [00:31:00] adjacent people, we looked at each other like, we're in our, we're in our 40s 

know, a lot of our friends have kids. We love those kids. We, we cherish those children, but we're childless. Should we start clubbing again? Should we start partying again? Because I feel like I don't think I really partied really, definitely not in my thirties and I didn't do that much of it in my twenties.

Feel like my twenties and especially my thirties was about career, career, serious Benjamin, focus, Benjamin, do your work, prove yourself, get money from a freelance career, because how is that even possible? Don't bring shame to your ancestors. All of that. A lot of, a lot of stuff to to manage. And then by the time I hit 40, I'm like, I think I don't have anything to prove. I am proud of the work that I make and I want to blow off some steam. And that was kind of the exact juncture that Renaissance came out. [00:32:00] And that is the perfect album to dance to, you know, that to flick on at midnight. You don't even have to do it. You don't even need a DJ, just flick Renaissance on. a party.Ory.

Andy Gott: I, can I ask, have you been, um, privileged enough to be in a nightclub environment and have heard this album start to finish?

Benjamin Law: It's a very good question, and my answer is yes, specifically because I went to a club in Sydney that no longer exists. It was called Pleasures Playhouse. 

Andy Gott: of It 

Benjamin Law: was Do you know of it? did you did you ever go did you ever go there, 

Andy Gott: with a friend to see, a screening of the Madonna documentary Truth or 

Benjamin Law: Oh, fantastic. So you know the space, right? In reception, it had the, um, the pole that you could do pole dancing on, which as you can imagine, a drunken night out, everyone tries the pole, almost gives himself a catastrophic spinal cord injury, but laughs it off. But to dance in that club, because [00:33:00] it's an abandoned theater, it has tiered, uh, standing where the seats would have been.

But it also means that no matter how tall or how short you are, you can see everyone dancing at the same time. So when someone flicks on Renaissance, because it was a Renaissance party, I was like, Oh, they're playing tracks that I like, but it's not Renaissance. Like I didn't pay money for this. But then at 1am, you know, you hear those first beats drop of Renaissance and you just.

The room was electric because everyone was here for the same reason. It was sexy. It was fun. 

Andy Gott: you mentioned the sequencing earlier, which is so fundamental to this album. 

but that specifically, uh, Cozy, inter alien, superstar, inter cuff it, sends me to 

galaxies unknown. 

Benjamin Law: an amazing sequence. right? Such a good sequence. And also like. [00:34:00] Outside of Renaissance, like the tracks that weren't on the, album but are a part of the Renaissance universe, like the um, the remix that she does with Madonna for Break Your Soul, you know, where is spliced with Vogue. Like, one, how do you even have that conversation with Madonna to actually use her music like that?

Incredible. but also the track that kind of came out after Renaissance and before Cowboy Carter, which was, 

um, My House. Such a banger of a track. 

If anyone has the audacity to interpolate Vogue, it is Beyoncé and, you know, for Madonna to say yes to that. But I loved in that remix specifically, she was, being reverential to Madonna with her role in dance music and queer culture, but she switched up the rap from Hollywood stars to Black female [00:35:00] singers.

Andy Gott: So she was achieving these two iconic goals at the same time by giving a shout out to Madonna, but also paying homage to all of these 

exceptional black female artists. It's just, why is she so chef's kiss? Why are you so chef's kiss? 

Benjamin Law: because I think what happened from Lemonade onwards is Beyonce became an educator in a way. Right. So I think like she comes in with a thesis for what she wants to do. She's always made great pop music, but now she's just like, I have a mission that's driving me. And like, when you talk about that, like I can hear the roll call, like she goes through like, Missy to, um, to Grace Jones.

She mentions Grace Jones twice. She [00:36:00] does a shout out to her sister as well. It's very, very, very cool. But even, you know, the latest album, Cowboy Carter is. Hey, here is an album that's going to make you think about black people in country music. the erasure of them, the existence of them, which so many people aren't aware of. And I'm going to, I don't know, bring along like some of the best country artists in America who are black, but also have Dolly Parton and Willie Nelson flank me and tell you what's what as well while I'm at it. Like, it's very, cool. She's a very, very,

um, savvy operator. 

I have a lot of respect 

Andy Gott: you have already mentioned, the artist that you've picked to gay, you've picked to gay, um, today. 

Benjamin Law: That's actually quite, that's 

Andy Gott: It's going to stay in. It's not going to get edited out. tell me why you picked Rufus Wainwright on top of that lovely introduction [00:37:00] you gave

him 

Benjamin Law: Wainwright is really 

gay. You know, that's the first thing. Like he's someone who dresses, he uses like lapels and he likes to flourish in his clothes and in his costuming. He, He, he very cravat. he very cravat. He's a part of the C community and, um, he, he plays piano. He's got a bit of a lisp. He's a bit nasal, like he's very gay.

And I feel like when you. Fall in love with Rufus Wainwright, and who cannot because, you know, when you listen to him, it's like listening to the most beautiful, rich, layered musical, um, about gayness, about love, about heartbreak, about the heartbreak of family, um, because if you know a little bit about a Rufus Wainwright's story.

He is the child of Kate McGarrigle, who's Canadian singer songwriter royalty, and Loudon Wainwright III, who is an amazing songwriter also a massive womanizer. So he [00:38:00] comes from this this dynasty, and he's the brother of Martha Wainwright, as well, and Lucy Wainwright, and the, the nephew of Anna McGarrigle.

is an incredible family. and Rufus was the gay one, and I bring Rufus because back to the conversation that we had right at the start, Andy, which is like you often spend, well not all of us, but enough of us spend a lot of time disavowing certain kinds of music because we either don't want to be gay or after we come out we don't want to be that kind of gay.

Rufus Wainwright is that kind of gay and he not only embraces that about himself, I think he gives other people the permission and the courage to be that kind of gay or whatever kind of gay they are. And he brings other incredible queer talent to our attention as well. Like he's collaborated so much with people like, the artist now who now goes by Enhoney as well.

and. I think because he came onto the scene so [00:39:00] young, we also have the soundtrack of a life that's developing. You know, he's grey, around the edges, he's married now, 

a father as well and um, you know, to seeand hear him go from a very, very young age, you know, I was listening to him when I was in my teens and he was in his twenties, feels like a real privilege to get a soundtrack of a life like that and also have a 

soundtrack to my

life 

too. 

Andy Gott: Absolutely. And I go back to that beautiful anecdote you shared about going into that store and asking these ladies to import this very expensive CD, but you being opened up to a very gay world through that CD in a not uh, world, um, that you were living on a day-to-Day reality. And, that those sorts of albums are always so special to us. And, um, how lucky have someone like that take you through that window and, and go on a bit of a

wild ride. 

Benjamin Law: I almost feel like I was listening to my future. You know what I mean? Like I had no reference point for it, [00:40:00] but here I am in a beach bum coastal community in Queensland and I could hear the city and it was really gay. Mmm. 

Andy Gott: I look we're being very transparent with each other today. and I, and to tie it back to that conversation again with the Kylie and the Mariah chat, I. I'm still on my journey with Rufus. I, um, I, I love that genre of music and I wonder why I haven't fully connected with him yet. And, and I do wonder if part of it is, well, first of all, he's got a very

distinctive voice regardless of the gayness.

It's a very distinctive voice and in, um, this is a very different voice, but similarly how some people have a relationship with Neil Tennant from

the Pet Shop Boys. It's just so unique 



Benjamin Law: I know what 

you 

Andy Gott: a while to get your ear around it. 

Benjamin Law: It's like a new instrument. It's just like, what is that? What is a 

bassoon? 

Andy Gott: Very much. So, um, but the way that his fans talk about him with that reverence and connection and he's clearly Enormously [00:41:00] talented. I believe that there's some there's something still in my future with 

Rufus 

Benjamin Law: Yeah.

It's kind of like, you know, I have a complicated relationship with musicals in that a musical is either the best thing I've seen or I can't wait to flee during intermission. Like I can't stand a bad musical. And Rufus, I think taps into a tradition of musicals in a way. And opera and all of that sort of stuff. But listening closely I think it might just be the best musical that you've ever heard. And start with the album Want One. That's, that's the album you should 

Andy Gott: Okay. because I was going to ask you if you had gun to head top three or five Rufus tracks that noted on the album. 

Benjamin Law: So from the album Want One, I would say go or go [00:42:00] ahead. it's so it's classic Rufus. It builds and it builds and it crescendos, like good musical songs do. it's victorious rousing. Dinner at Eight, which closes the, the album is this really devastating account of meeting his father from whom he's kind of semi estranged and. A little bit competitive with, you know, he always looked up to his father, Loudon Wainwright the third, and then they had dinner and it was just off the back of Rufus's fame, riding high and eclipsing his father's and It was very, very obvious to Rufus that Loudon was really unhappy about it, but didn't know a way to express it.

And the way that he did express it was just being a bastard over dinner. oh, there's just like crushing lines about, you know, [00:43:00] You're leave this dinner like in the drifting white snow you left me, you know as a child and then from his Debut record, Rufus Wainwright, self titled. The lead single was April Fool's, but I would recommend a song called Imaginary Love, which is a breakup song, and it is the most song that you've ever 

heard and if you just want to revel in self pity and just feel like no one will ever love you again but Rufus knows how you feel, listen to Imaginary Love.

It's just You know when you just [00:44:00] want to lie in 

bed and watch The 

Hours with Julianne Moore and 

Meryl Streep and 

Nicole Kidman and you're just like, I'm going to lean into my depression. Watch The Hours 

and then listen to 

Andy Gott: Nicole Kidman's prosthetic nose in The Hours is queer. 

Benjamin Law: Oh yeah, absolutely. 

Andy Gott: Mmm. 

Benjamin Law: Yeah, there should be a 

float dedicated to it. 

Andy Gott: that's really beautiful. Thank you so much. And, um, noted on that album, I'm going to give that album a red hot crack tomorrow morning, and I'll report back to you. 

I don't know if you're allowed, I don't know if you want to, but I do have to ask, what are you working on next?

Benjamin Law: what can I talk about publicly? I'm working on a play, Where by the time you hear this, it will be announced. That play will be in the city of Melbourne, uh, next year in 2025. I'm working on a screen project that, uh, is for [00:45:00] a streaming company.

Who knows whether it. will get made, but I'm really enjoying writing it. Um, yeah, I'm working on those two major things. And then I keep weekly commitments like writing for the Good 

Weekend magazine in tow as 

Andy Gott: do you have a queer social initiative or charity that you'd like to give a shout out to? 

Benjamin Law: Yeah, I am an ambassador for an LGBTIQA plus youth charity called the Pinnacle Foundation And what the Pinnacle Foundation does is it gives scholarships to LGBTIQA plus people across So if you're between the ages of 18 and 26 and you're doing tertiary education full time, um, you, and you get one of these scholarships, you'll be supported financially, but also through, um, a mentorthroughout the entire span of your education. And the reason why we do that is I think after we passed same sex marriage in this country, we thought, oh, well, that's it. It's all over. Gay rights have been settled, we kind of forget that like, you [00:46:00] know, uh, 40 something percent, or close to, voted no, and those people, um, you know, are parts of families, um, have children.

And there are still a lot of queer youth across the country that have trouble finishing their education or pursuing higher education. So the Pinnacle Foundationfinds those young people from a variety of backgrounds, you know, regional Australia, people who are First Nations, disabled, um, people from migrant backgrounds as well, lower socio economic backgrounds, and we make sure that those queer young people have the support that they might not otherwise get without a 

scholarship.

Or a mentorship.

Andy Gott: love that. all charities are valid and, but that's just so lovely to hear about a charity that I wasn't previously aware of and sounds like an exceptional cause. So thank you very much for 

sharing that 

one. Benjamin Law, you are queer and thank you very much for your tracks. 

Benjamin Law: You outed me just then? What? No, we all knew that. Thanks so much [00:47:00] Andy, that was so much 

Andy Gott: Absolutely. 

You can follow Benjamin online at links in this episode, show notes, including his charity of choice at the pinnacle foundation. Tracks of our quiz is presented and produced by me. Andy got entirely on unceded Gadigal and the Ngarigo Aboriginal land. Podcast artwork is illustrated by Luke tribe, who is actually a good friend of Ben's. You can email me your thoughts, recommendations or gay ramblings. 

Two tracks of our careers@gmail.com. See you next time