Bright Light Bright Light, singer songwriter

Bright Light Bright Light, aka Rod Thomas, is an entirely independent pop superstar based in New York City.

Hailing from Wales, Rod has rewritten the rulebook for being a singer songwriter without major label backing, mostly through tremendously hard work, and an ever-growing back catalogue of bangers.

He's been backed, endorsed, and collaborated with legends like Sir Elton John, Erasure, Scissor Sisters and Ultra Naté over the years, but the latest Bright Light Bright Light album, Enjoy Youth, is Rod's most critically and commercially successful yet.

We discuss music by Björk, Pino Donaggio, and Grace Jones.

Further reading:

• Follow Bright Light Bright Light on Instagram
• Purchase Enjoy Youth here
• Check out Rod's Grace Jones playlist here

The other bits:

• Tracks of Our Queers is recorded and edited between Gadigal and Ngarigo land by me, Andy Gott
• Listen to all of the music discussed in the pod with the Selections from Tracks of Our Queers playlist
• You can email me with your own queer tracks or guest recommendations at tracksofourqueers@gmail.com
• Our beautiful artwork is illustrated by Luke Tribe

Transcript

[00:00:00] 

Andy Gott: Rod Thomas is a Welsh singer song writer based in New York, who you likely know better as bright, light, bright light. With enormous talent, fabulous visuals and the relentless fire in the belly required to carve out an independent path to pop stardom. Rod's career seems to go from strength to strength. he's toured and collaborated with Erasure the scissor sisters and his sir Elton John. He's a fearless advocate for LGBTQ rights in his adopted and home countries and crucially possesses, a fierce ear for a banger. I deeply admire rod. We all know, singer song writers and performers, who for a variety of reasons have worked their socks off to build a successful career. Without traditional record label, fire power. It's a topic we discuss in our chat, but it really is something to be celebrated and celebrated bright, light, bright light is.

Between regular DJ sets and dance parties in New York and touring across the states, the UK and Europe, rod has just released his latest album. 

Enjoy youth earlier this year in may. You [00:01:00] can purchase a physical copy on his website, LinkedIn, my show notes, or you can stream right away now. 

Tracks of our quiz is produced, presented and edited by me. So if you enjoy this episode and feel compelled to shut me a coffee, you can do so via the link in the show notes. Every penny goes to editing and hosting costs and it's deeply appreciated. Over to rod. 



Andy Gott: Hello Rod. Welcome to Tracks of Our Queers.

Rod Thomas: Thank you very much. Thanks for having me.

Andy Gott: I'd love to know where you grew up and especially what was playing at home.

Rod Thomas: I grew up between two villages in the South Wales Coal mining Valley, so it was very remote. I think my earliest musical memories were Andrew Lloyd 

Webber

And then the Beatles as well. My parents loved The Beatles and they loved Abba and they loved musicals.

So a, a strange mixture of all of those 

things is what I first remember before I started bringing pop into the mix.

Andy Gott: [00:02:00] It sounds crazy, but I've only just recently been on this journey of discovering how widely spread Andrew Lloyd Weber soundtracks specifically were in homes around the UK and the US in terms of they, they're obviously playing on stage in London and New York, but homes were just full of the soundtracks.

They sold so many copies,

Rod Thomas: Okay. My question, how old are you?

Andy Gott: 32.

Rod Thomas: Maybe that's why you don't know then, because in the eighties, In the eighties, that's really all people had. in school, you had to sing Webber songs in the choir and in, performances. you were always doing an Andrew Lloyd Webber performance like Joseph or some other, there was no escape from the man.

he must have made so much money. It's unreal.

Do you remember, Do you remember the first song or artist that you connected with in a way that was perhaps. Different from all the other boys, 

Of base all that she wants.

Andy Gott: [00:03:00] I heard that song and something happened in me like that, that type of euro pop music like blew. My brain into another dimension. I loved it so much and I both took cassette single, I would play it and then pause it, write down the lyrics and rewind it, and then go back and write down all the lyrics.

Rod Thomas: All of my friends that I subsequently met in my closest hometown in like drama class, so obviously we were all gays. We did the same thing. We played it. Paused it, rewound it and wrote down the lyrics. And it was so weird that we all did that cuz it 

wasn't really a very common thing to 

do. 

And it was for that specific song as well. So there was something brewing in Neath and Port Talbot in 1992 when Ace of Base released all that she wants, and it's it's very pivotal in my life. It's very important in my life.

Andy Gott: I can absolutely hear and see that, and I think specifically there's that which is incredibly gay. It's a [00:04:00] very incredibly two seconds. Yeah.

Rod Thomas: it's almost like the phantom of the opera is coming around the corner. It's like, I see you. I don't know. Like the whole thing is so wildly camp. it makes no sense. Like I. The song is absolutely bonkers. Like going from my to major key and like just, it's just, it's wild, right?

It's, it's a three and a half minutes of absolute insanity that just took over the world. An amazing 

song. 

Andy Gott: How did you end up in New York?

Rod Thomas: Oh. A bit of like luck and I don't know. It's, it's a very random tale for anyone that doesn't know my life story. I moved to London from Warwick Uni. I'd done work experience at a record label. between my second and third years, which is like middle and final. And I'd interned at this record label called PS Play Against Sam, and then I couldn't find a job [00:05:00] in London, so I just emailed them.

I was like, I need a job. Do you have anything going? They need a receptionist. So I took that job. I worked there for six months and I was a pa then I was a marketing assistant over the course of two years and learned how independent record labels worked and how independent shops worked. And quit because I'm an absurd person.

To get a new job, couldn't find one. So then started busking on the underground and doing multiple bar jobs to pay the rent ended up earning more money from doing that than I was at my terrible job. And made music and continued doing that until eventually. I played enough shows that I managed to convince somebody to listen to the songs got a amazing break with Hugh Stevens and Bethany Elvin on Radio One who played a song of mine back to back for 12 weeks.

And kind of like shoehorned a career for myself making music and. For the first time I went to New York in 2009 on the way to South by Southwest, And the first minute that I was in New York, I was like, oh my, this is like so where I'm supposed to be. You know when you [00:06:00] feel a place and you're like, oh my God, I really don't belong where I am and I really think that this might be the place that I should 

live. 

And so over the next three years, I was coming back and doing shows. And radio things and stuff like while I was putting out music and every single time I came, I just loved it more and more and more. And then I got my visa to travel to America to play shows. And on that visa, you're allowed to remain in the country as long as you have work that you can prove.

So I said I'd go there for three months, see how it goes. And in the first week it was just like, Iconic, like I'd been on tour with the scissor sisters. The year previous to that, and Dell Marquis is one of my best friends. So I moved in with 

him, 

which is a very like royal entry to New York.

Moved in with him for three years actually. But in the first week I met all of his friends and just met random people in bars that were like, oh, you do music, great. I come and DJ this thing, come and collaborate with this person. And it was immediately home and [00:07:00] I just have not left.

Andy Gott: Mm. I love that crash course in the New York queer music scene. Here's all the people that you need to know. Fantastic.

Rod Thomas: Totally amazing. It's like nowhere else I've lived where people really do care about other people in the 

queer, 

community they're interested in helping people thrive, not just survive. And I have not found that in many other places that I've been.

Andy Gott: Hmm. I clearly remember your debut album coming out in 2012?

Rod Thomas: Mm-hmm.

Andy Gott: And I followed you since, and I think through your career. Your independence as an artist is something that fans and admirers clearly gravitate towards, and I've no doubt that it's not all smooth sailing, but it must be deeply satisfying to look back at your success and recognize that it was kind of completely off your own back.

Rod Thomas: It's absolutely wild to me that any of these things happened, I really am shocked that those things came to play and I really had no backup and I had [00:08:00] no. Assurance that any of these things were gonna happen. I just loved making music and I just made things happen.

Part of the whole independent thing, people. Mistakenly think that I'm really pigheaded or I'm really bullish, or I'm fiercely independent. I don't wanna deal labels. Labels are awful, whatever that is absolutely not the case. Just nobody was coming to the table and I did not wanna waste my life waiting for people to make things happen for me.

So I made them happen. And for any independent artists that are listening to your show don't wait for things. Don't just sit there and wait for someone else to open doors for you. Like it won't happen without being doom and glm. It will not happen. You have to open the doors for yourself.

once people can see that you'll open doors, they might open a few more for you. if you have things that you want to do, just do it if I had waited for a label, I would probably still be in London and I would have gone 

nowhere. 

Andy Gott (2): Yeah, I'm clearly not a musician. I'm a podcaster, but that attitude resonates very deeply with me, terms of, you have to. Go and do it. you can't wait for someone, no one's gonna come to you and [00:09:00] say, oh, I've been watching you and I think that you are really good, so you should go and do this.

Rod Thomas: you are the only one in control here. So, it's very admirable. And again, not without its challenges, but I wish more of us were a bit like that. I mean, I'm also like wild and I don't really like when I look back at some of the things I did and just like, you know, moved to London without a job and moved to New York without a job. It's nonsense behavior and you really shouldn't do that if you're a sensible person.

But I did it and I'm glad that I did. And thank God that I didn't end up on the street 

Andy Gott: 

Rod Thomas: That's a bit of a reality

Andy Gott: It's very Madonna. If she came from South Wales.

Rod Thomas: Yes. I'm very Madonna. It's like, ma, we, if she was

Madonna. Madonna

Andy Gott: You have taught with Alton, you've tour with Eddie Golding amongst others, but you've also taught with erasure, erasure are one of the most selected artist slash song slash album.

It seems like every other person I interviewed, they've gone with erasure So they have clearly left an impact on a significant swath of the, the demographic that I'm approaching for interviews.

[00:10:00] I need to know how is your experience touring with them.

Rod Thomas: I get very emotional when I talk about Erasure. They are two of the most important people in music in my life. I remember seeing them, doing the ABBA esque thing, and I think that that was instrumental in bringing ABBA back into the mainstream and their financial success after the eighties decline.

I think that Andy Bell is one of the most important voices the queer community has ever had. He was so out so proud so vocal about H I V and gay rights before anyone else was coming to the table. In the UK pop market, he has really just lived his life on a stage 

and it is very inspirational to people, you know, growing up I didn't understand.

That I was like him because to me he was this confident, wonderful superstar that didn't look like a normal 

person and was 

charismatic and had this star quality And then I realized his life around it. when I grew up I realized he is just like the every man person, but he [00:11:00] just.

Led with his truth and artistry and he's just a wonderful person. Like Vince Clark. His production skills are incredible. His songwriting is incredible. They're both really good friends of mine and they are two of the absolute nicest people I've ever met in my entire life, 

And they're so down to earth. Like when I was on tour with them, I think it was in Birmingham. after the show I went into their dress room to say hi. Vince was making Andy a piece of toast and he was like, alright, do you want a piece of toast? 

I'm okay. Thanks Vince. they're just icons. They really are British icons and. They've done so much for the British music scene and for queer representation. And you know, something that people don't remember is that in all of the visuals, Vince is like carrying the joke a lot of the time.

Or he is carrying the representation like he's in drag, he's having fun, he's not being dragged along by it, he's having a blast. And he's doing that with one of his best friends at his side and they're creating this [00:12:00] world where people can. Believe in themselves and believe in hope, and believe in the fact that like the Tori government telling them that queer people should die in the eighties were wrong.

And that people across the world who you know say that trans lives don't matter, they're wrong, and the power of singing your pain and your joy is. Is really like the key of life. they did so much for the world. I really, I cannot thank them enough and their music just by chance is completely fantastic.

I chose not to pick them because I always talk about them and I wanted to talk about somebody else. Like it would be very easy for me to pick. Erasure, like they're my favorite band, you could pick any one of their songs and it's, 

yeah, I had to kind of write them and some of my favorites out of this this horrendous task 

Andy Gott: Okay. I appreciate that. But what is the one erasure song that you never get sick of hearing?

Rod Thomas: always.

Andy Gott: [00:13:00] It's, it's amazing. I remember seeing that on top of the pops this strange wintry, oriental fantasy was a big queer moment for me. That's when I was like, oh my God. I'm not the same as everyone else. 

Rod Thomas: The, the ASA bass was like, musically, I was obsessed with it to a way that I hadn't been before, but that erasure video was just like a wow.



Rod Thomas: Because they weren't, he wasn't in drag, you know? It was a man being something else. And it was awakening. It was life changing, universe expanded. 

Amazing. 

Andy Gott: Okay. Speaking of people that you did not pick, your 2020 album featured BT Q, guest vocalists, including Sam Sparro, aforementioned Andy Bell Justin Vivian Bond, who is an enormous queero of mine, but. Specifically Madonna's famed singers, Niki Harris and Donna Delory. You did not pick Madonna as your artist today, which I am sort of thrilled about cause it means I can ask these questions earlier on.

This was my house. Is possibly my favorite thing that you've ever done? [00:14:00] In my opinion. It was amazing to hear. Their vocals. It was amazing to hear their vocals on a banging eighties, nineties house track where they belong. And I also loved the idea of you as a queer man. Clearly, you didn't have to say it.

Those of us who understood, we were just picking up for the music. You had a A dear affection for them and were kind of not curating, but, but heroing them in a song which showed them off in a way that people wanted to hear them, but made them sound fabulous and strong. And that was a really special song.

And it wasn't until doing research for this interview that. You had a meaning behind it, which is, it was a tribute to, the queer spaces in New York, which were and are under threat. And that was a, a new layer for me. I was just appreciating it as like a house banger,

Rod Thomas: Yeah, I wrote it. I went to see a friend of mine for a drink one night, and he told me that his parents had voted for Trump, and [00:15:00] I felt so sad for him. He's a wonderful, unique little man that just lives his life on his sleeve. And he told them what it would mean to his safety if they voted for Trump, and they did.

It was the first time I'd really heard a friend say that explicitly that that had happened to them and that there was no concept of like renegotiating their stance. And I walked home and I wrote that song immediately from leaving the bar in my head. I was only living like two blocks from the bar.

I walked around for five to 10 minutes. While I wrote that song and I was singing it into my phone, like a complete stream of consciousness and then went home and started putting it to a beat. I found this story so moving and so horrendous.

And it's not a very unique tale, unfortunately. Like it's common that parents voted for dreadful people Cuz people just truly don't care about other people's lives. It would 

seem, 

And yeah, I wrote that song about how we are not safe and no one cares no one [00:16:00] wants us to have safety in our homes and our bars. And I wrote that song for him. And then thinking about Nicki and Donna being front runners in the time when Madonna was championing the queer community I thought like, wow, like what a. Amazing thing it would be if I could perceivably get them on that track. And they said yes. And they are amazing. Like we text each other quite frequently and they're fabulous, fabulous women who are like brilliant, like such a laugh, so cool. Have achieved such wild things and are just like really down to earth. Normal 

women. Absolute megastars.

Andy Gott: And they're so normal, like you said, but they're also different. They're so different within themselves, but they've had this unique life experience and tight sisterhood, and it's special anytime we get to see them together. So yeah, thanks for 

Rod Thomas: Yeah. least [00:17:00] I could do, honestly. 

Andy Gott: Hmm.

Alright we're moving closer to getting into your selections. I do need to ask you know, I'm in the business of being bold and asking people for favors, so I need your advice in this area. How on earth do you ask Sir Elton John if he can feature on your song?

Rod Thomas: He actually asked me if I could sing on if he could sing on a song. Isn't that so crazy? The first one, the first year we did together. We became really good friends and we were hanging out, I think because I'm ridiculous and I made him laugh. He kind of kept me around for a while and he really liked my first album.

And so what he does with a lot of artists is He mentors them and gives them advice. we started to have lunches together once in a while and he, thought I was so funny. we just would hang out more and more and talk about music and I would play him new songs not mine, but like other people's songs.

we'd had this brilliant friendship going and And then I was going with him to festival one year with like, it was me, him and Alexis Petridis from a 

Guardian, 

traveling with him and he just sort of said, Do you want me to sing on a song or can I [00:18:00] sing on a song with you or something?

And I was like, it's not as if I haven't thought about asking you that. so I sent him the song and he said yes. And then for the next album I did actually ask him to sing on all in the name. Yeah, it, it's absolutely crazy. Like he's just a very generous person with this time. All of these people that I've worked with, the Elton Erasure, all the people on my albums, they work with me because we're 

friends. 

It's been an organic process where I've met them and eventually, the collaboration has come into play. It's not like I've cold called 

anyone other than Nikki and Donna 

But everyone else has been a friendship that's morphed into a creative collaboration. so work harder to be friends with people babes, not you, but like in general. it's wild. 

Andy Gott: There is a beautiful moment at the end of your performance on the Graham Norton Show where you can see that Alton says, like, well done sweetie, after Dueting [00:19:00] with you. the mentorship of younger artists that he's given over the decades really is well-documented 

But I think there's something particularly special when he mentors younger queer artists like yourselves. it's just really wonderful to see the queer artist of the 20th 

Rod Thomas: Yeah, 

Andy Gott: still finding the time and energy to take younger, queer people under his wink. 

Rod Thomas: totally. I mean, there are so many people that could do that, that just don't, and the busiest man in the world is the person that takes the time to 

do it. it speaks volumes to his character.

Andy Gott: Rod, you have picked one track, one album, and one artist under instruction today. You said it was a terrible experience, which I get quite often actually. why don't we kick off with the track you picked and why.

Rod Thomas: I picked Bjork's, incredible song, hyper Ballad, because it is one of the most singular songs. That I've ever heard in my life that somehow was also a top 10 single in the uk. [00:20:00] She was riding this wild wave of, you know, being bonkers and very mainstream at the same time, which very few people have done since.

I don't think and I really think that hyper ballad is. don't understand how it was written. I don't understand how it was produced. Cuz the production is completely dreamlike and space age and somehow really human. It's like the precursor to all is full of love, where it feels like a computer and a human made love and created this song.

It's like such a special song. The lyrics is so weird. It's, A mix of the mundane and the [00:21:00] spectacular. Talking about cutlery, 

you know, throwing cutlery off a mountain, I grew up in the mountains and in a valley and I, it actually spoke to me in the surroundings that I had these like green hills and like jagged rocks I used to go, Climbing up a tmp, which is basically an old mountain of shit, really.

That is like, it's like where they bury trash and then put like coal over the top of it, and then grass grows a bit. It's like a weird, jagged strange

Andy Gott: Sounds a bit dangerous.

Rod Thomas: yeah, it was very dangerous. And so this weird, like rural imagery with a mixture of city mentality I craved for.

Was very much in my wheelhouse. that song sparked my desire to look beyond where I lived and realize that things come from a place, but they're not necessarily confined to a place. I didn't understand how you make electronic production like that.

And even though I love things like ASA based Living Joy, black box, blah, blah, blah, blah, that was also kind of. This sounds reductive, [00:22:00] but like standard production, it was like four to the floor beats with drum sounds that you heard a lot and piano stabs and sounds I could understand people making those songs.

But then when you hear hyper ballad, it's like, who produced this and who made this like pulsating, cocoon like song that sounded like it was an animal evolving 



Rod Thomas: and that it was like the. A breakdown and reconnection of a relationship in this like heavenly safety net that she has of like screaming about being safe with a person.

It is just like every emotion at play at once in this insane world that I don't think anyone has made anything that sounds like the song ever in history. It's just, I think it's the best song in the world. I think it's the best time in the world.

Andy Gott: Okay. All right. I mean, [00:23:00] exceptional. Yeah, there's really not much I can add to that. I loved what you said about g growing up in that rural environment So how did, what did you say again where you.

Rod Thomas: I don't remember. 

I say these things and I can never 

Andy Gott: It was profound, rod.

just because you're from somewhere doesn't mean 

that you have to stay somewhere. 

Rod Thomas: very deep. You know,

Andy Gott: That's, and that's the queer experience. you also commented on the connection between the human and the computer, and I think that it, flows through the song and through and through Bjork's career, specifically you've got the Beats by Nelly Hooper and then you've got these incredible strings, 

Rod Thomas: Oh, the strings are like out of this world. it's majestic. where the emotion comes from. the strings soaring at the end. It's like the climax of a film where you've beaten the bad guy and everything's falling apart, but you know you're gonna survive and everything is beautiful.

it's just insane. My hairs are standing on 

end just talking about that song. It's wild.

Andy Gott: the reinventions over the years. Well, first of all, her relationship with the song is just classic Bjork you've got people all over the world who say it's the best song ever. Full stop. [00:24:00] And when you hear her talk about it she did a really great podcast series last year where she talked about it and she kind of just sees it the way that she's.

Sees any of her songs, she's like, yeah, this is how I made it. It's hyper ballad, but people are like, this is probably one of the greatest things you've ever done. And the reinventions that she does live, I love how she can lean into the more rave element and the whole crowd is just going off.

Rod Thomas: That was my favorite reinvention, like on the 

Volta tour where she dropped LFO's Freak. I was there at Glastonbury when that happened, and I thought I was gonna die, like I actually thought I was going to die. There was a woman in front of me with a child in a shopping 

trolley. She left the child to go dancing to this song.

It was like everyone had an out of body experience. I really thought that like that was gonna be the end of my life and I was ready for it.

Andy Gott: you were transcending to L F O.

Rod Thomas: I was ready. nothing is gonna be better than 

this.

Andy Gott: [00:25:00] Okay, so the album you picked, I'm really keen to hear why you picked this one.

Rod Thomas: So I don't really listen to pop music at home. Actually. I listen mostly to film scores. I. Obviously make a lot of pop music in my day-to-day thing. And so I listen to pop music when I'm out and about, so I've got a bit of energy and it's nice to have the ebb and flow of pop songs and, you know, r and b and all like songs and vocals when I'm in a real space.

At home, I like to make this little nest. and so I spent a lot of time listening to old Italian horror film scores because they're really beautiful. They had all of these incredible composers enlisted to do film after film, after film, film, and they have these incredible melodies 

They take me out of this world. They really stop me thinking about admin and Republicans and, terrible things going on in the world and make me believe that life can be beautiful and I really need that. So, the album that I've picked is a, an album by a [00:26:00] composer called Pinot de Nagio, who, if you don't know who he is, he was deeply embroiled with Brian De Palma in his film career and did Dress to Kill.

He didBody double, lots of his scores he did don't Look Now, which is an incredible horror film. Yeah, it's a horror film, I

Andy Gott: Is it a bit sexy as well?

Rod Thomas: Yes. I mean, they're all a bit sexy. 

But the one that I've chosen is a film called Blowout, which is this one of my favorite films of all time.

If you haven't seen it, John Travolta pre craziness. And Nancy Allen, who I believe was Brian Palmer's wife in this tale of a guy that goes out and records audio for film. So if you need like an owl hooting, he'll go out and record the owl and, you know, make all the sounds that you hear in movies.

So he is out one night and he overhears through his recording device an [00:27:00] accident that he believes is a crime, and then he works with the police department or against the police department to prove that it was like an attempted murder. And the film is delicious. Like all the, the acting performances are amazing.

The plot is so cool. The ending is, oh my God, the ending. I lost my mind. It's so good. and the score is one of the most incredible things I've ever heard. It's so beautiful. It's so sad. 

Like it's so. 

Touching and poignant and just hauntingly gorgeous. Like it's an amazing, so I could listen to this score for the rest of my life.

I listen to it all the time. Like when I'm on planes, I'll listen to it maybe three or four times through. I think it's Pinot de Nagios most stunning work. It's really.

I mean, if you don't like [00:28:00] classical music, you're probably gonna hate it. But I think it's an amazing album and I thought it would be fun to choose something which wasn't just like a pop

Andy Gott: A hundred percent. Yeah. I'm really, really grateful that you shared something that I'd never heard of because it is absolutely beautiful and I wrote down like haunting melancholy, it's very sad. And without having seen the film, I didn't know why. It was sad, but it was incredibly sad.

And also specifically reminiscent of, you know, that sort of autumn leaves melancholy that where it's so beautiful but it's so sad.

Rod Thomas: It's very physiological. When I listen to that song, it really puts me in the middle of a film scene where I can feel like I'm walking down a street in London or Paris, it's a bit damp and I can feel leaves blowing and a little bit of a breezemoody sky, the film score just, it brings so much to life in my brain when I listen to it, not necessarily the film, but just like all of these like, It's so volatile, the imagery that it produces when you listen to it, it's just [00:29:00] so special.

I think It's incredible.

Andy Gott: Plus also, if you are insane, like me and you buy the vinyl, there are two random songs with vocals by an Italian woman that do not feature at all in the film. And they're like just so weird. And NAF, they're called like love is Illumination and. welcome to the freedom to believe.

Rod Thomas: It's got nothing to do with the film at 

all.

they're delicious trash. They could be like Eurovision songs, you

Andy Gott: I think we need to start a campaign to get the blowout soundtrack on streaming.

Rod Thomas: yes, we do. It's strange that it isn't because a lot of his other scores are,

So I don't know why that one in particular isn't. Who knows?

Andy Gott: Okay. The artist, please take the floor.

Rod Thomas: Ladies and gentlemen, Ms. Grace Jones, there is no one on this earth like her. I really struggled to choose which [00:30:00] artist. I'm gonna tell you like my shortlist, which pains

me not to do them. George Michael. 

Sylvester and Grace were the three where I'm like, I can't live without 

them. Madonna, absolutely.

But I wanted it to be an actual queer 

person, so that was an easy way to narrow it down. Same with like, you know, Mariah, Carey, Janet, I listened to them all the time, but they're 

not actually queer. So But Grace, well, Grace Jones isn't either, but I mean she's

Andy Gott: But she feels queer in a way that, I guess you could debate this between her and Madonna but Grace, having come up through that seventies, eighties scene surrounded by queer people all the time, there has to be that element there.

Rod Thomas: she represents so much. she represents The empowerment of a black female body and an androgynous 

body and fighting against gender norms and gender stereotypes, which I think is so important. And very early on she was a pioneer of being who you are. She was so bold Just brazen and fabulous and creative and talented in every kind of which [00:31:00] way. whether she's in vamp the movie or singing like Autumn Leaves 



singing about like her heritage or her family, everything she does is just so arresting and it's just so. 

Unique. There's just her take on things is amazing, and the iconic people that she worked with, the like startling visuals that she's had at every stage of her career I can't believe that one person has made all of these like, images, amazing songs, you know, art galleries, billboards, magazines, whatever.

She's just done everything. Radio hits, films. It's like, I, I could, it's just such a tour of force, like it's this unstoppable, creative woman that is just bulldozed the world, but somehow not got the praise that she deserves for it as well.

Andy Gott: Do you remember the first [00:32:00] time you encountered Grace Jones?

Rod Thomas: Vamp. It was vam, the film. I thought she actually was a vampire. And I thought that was so cool. I was like, I love vampires. It's amazing that there's actually one that's famous. And then I realized she wasn't, she was just in a film. And then I realized she was a singer and then I heard the songs and it was like, oh God, that's so cool. I was very young when VAM came out. I think it was like three or something. So forgive my ignorance on that, Also believing that people could be vampires. I think that's, you know, I'm just letting people be who, who they are. Learning about her life as I grew older was really delicious.

And finally reading the memoirs when they came 

out a few years ago was just, spectacular. 

She's so wonderful.

Andy Gott: I'll never forget one of, the last chapters of that book where I remember just being on holiday and reading this huge hard back and just laughing by the pool, just like shaking with laughter, but, and it's, she's not even a comedian, it's just Grace Jones and at the end she's like, She's got some altercation with some record labor executive and she storms out of his office and like wishes him death or something and then she's like, and [00:33:00] then two months later he was dead.

And it's just, the delivery of it in print is like Only Grace Jones can get away with that.

Rod Thomas: Yeah. opening with, I was born, I mean, it's just, it's so camp it's, I read that first line and I screamed and I was like, this is gonna be a blast.

I did a Festival with 

Grace 

back in 2015. It was the Kylie Minogue, British Summertime Hyde Park Show.

So it was Kylie Grace Jones. Nile Rogers years and years, me, obviously I was quite far down the bill. But we were all backstage in the same 

kind of area and. Just Grace. We were carrying our equipment back to the artist area and Grace was being chauffeur on a little Jeep naked, apart from one Shiff on scarf. Through the backstage, just waving in people as if she was the queen. And I'm like, this is how you be a human being. You know, my tour driver at the time, Ian, who was amazing, straight man, you know, I definitely gave him like a baptism of fire with queer culture on the shows that we were doing opening for [00:34:00] Elton.

It was right after an A show opening for Elton. And he watched Grace Jones with me and he was like, I think she's the best human alive. he didn't really know her at all, other than the stuff you read. But D didn't really engage with the music, and he's like, I think she's the best person in the world.



Andy Gott: Yes. 

Rod Thomas: It was a brilliant festival.

Andy Gott: my first kind of conscious engagement with Grace Jones was a very old Jonathan Ross interview the Friday nights with Jonathan Ross early on, probably about 15, 20 years ago, dressed head to toe in Izzy Miyaki. that was when something went off in my brain that she was different than most people.

She was certainly more different than most people to land on that. Friday Night Couch and then I went away, got into her music and I will always have such a soft spot for the hurricane album, which came out around 2009 because it felt like it was her full manifestation as an artist. [00:35:00] I think it took her an absurd length of time to create, but whereas her seventies stuff is so legendary and iconic, 

You know It always felt like it was maybe someone else's vision a little bit more, but hurricane is so her through and through, and I'm kind of sad that we never got a follow up. It might still happen, but I'm so

Rod Thomas: I hope it does. 

Andy Gott: Yeah.

Rod Thomas: Yeah. I. Don't agree with 

you that, 

the eighties stuff sounds like someone else's vision. I see where you're coming from and I do agree that hurricane is the most realized version of her. I love the eighties 

album so much, especially living in New York and feeling that energy every day.

Stuff like living my Life 

when she has these songs like the Apple Stretching I see that and I really understand the lines about the bag lady and, the acne discount storing queens Like, [00:36:00] it's extremely 

accurate and it's very matter of fact, 

Fantastical songwriting. It's like diary entry and it's amazing. Living my life is actually my cat's favorite album. 

Every time I play Grace Jones, he's so happy and he like purs and rolls around.

Andy Gott: Loves Grace Jones. Your cat is a queer icon, clearly. 

Rod Thomas: Yes. My cat is an absolute queer icon. 

Andy Gott: the album that I go back to from the eighties is, I'm Not Perfect, but I'm perfect for you. 

Rod Thomas: 

inside story.

Yeah. It's an amazing album.

Andy Gott: I never wondered, cuz you can't, it's not on Google, but, and I could just be imprinting here, but the song Victor should have been a jazz musician. I always wondered if that was some sort of allergy to a friend that she'd maybe lost to AIDS considering the time period, but 

Rod Thomas: Yeah. It's a, it's a really cool song. I don't know who it's about I love that song so much. [00:37:00] it's smoky and it's nostalgic. such an intimate song, it's completely amazing. 

And then it bursts into Chan Hitchhikes to Shanghai and you're like, oh my God.

Okay. Brilliant.

Andy Gott: mm.

Rod Thomas: Love that. I listen to Grace Jones every single day of my life. Partly for my cat's enjoyment and partly for my own, like, deep pleasure. but like, Like really, really the true meaning of the word icon is Grace Jones.

Like every single media you can imagine, she has been like, More than superior at it. Every genre of music she's tried to hand at has sounded really like her. She's been in films, terrible and fantastic, you know, fashion magazine, everything. Like, I, I just don't understand how that woman is real.

She's just amazing. And her discography is just endlessly. Rewarding and like you can switch albums and like really rediscover stuff on albums. Like I wasn't the biggest fan of Bulletproof Heart [00:38:00] Album for a while, and then when I kind of lived with it more like put it on playlist when I'm at the gym or whatever moments peak out where you kind of really understand, ah, that's what you were going for.

And like I kind of appreciated the production a lot 

more.

thinking about queer, which is like not being the norm, she's absolutely one of the most unique human beings you can think of. Who has lived between spaces that people have carved out for normal human beings.

she's such an enigma and has this really special voice. 

I love listening to her voice. I love the tone the delivery is just delicious. It's like a fine dining meal. 

when you listen to it, there's not a moment wasted. It's incredible.

Andy Gott: Absolutely. Thank you so much for sharing that 

You have worked with so many bonafide queer icons. We've mentioned Erasure and Elton. We've talked about the Scissor Sisters [00:39:00] briefly, Hercules and Love Affair. But Rod, you are a queer icon.

Rod Thomas: Thank you. I will take that. I don't know if I've earned it quite yet, but I'm at the very least the super glue between many other queer icons.

Andy Gott: boom. This could be a whole a topic in itself for an episode, but what do you think is needed from a queer icon in 2023?

Rod Thomas: Perspective. Openness, consideration, and a sense of community. I'm really, bored of people who don't talk about anyone other than themselves or don't uplift anyone else. I find it pointless that you can live on this planet and not uplift your communities. It's so tedious to me.

Take that in the bin. whoever. is leading the next generation of queer artists and whatever, you have to care about the other people in your community. Otherwise, what are you 

Andy Gott: Mm. 

End of full stop

Rod Thomas: Bye. 

Andy Gott: Is there a queer charity initiative or social media account that you'd like to give a shout out to?

Rod Thomas: I would like to give a shout out to a nonprofit, In New York called the Ali [00:40:00] Forney Center, who do incredible work looking after homeless LGBTQ plus youth. And they do amazing programs and amazing outreach and you know, you just forget like kids are on the streets 

kicked out because of parents that refuse to accept their identities I try and support them as much as I can. The, this was my house. Cassette single benefited them they're amazing and there are a hundred thousand people I could talk about right now.

But I really wanted to highlight them given the fact that people are trying to remove safety for trans 

people. 

Andy Gott: Absolutely. Thank you. Well, rod Thomas, you are queer and thank you very much for your tracks.

Rod Thomas: You're welcome. Thank you for having me.

Andy Gott: You can follow Bright Light Bright Light online at links in this episode, show notes, including Rod's incredible. 

Grace Jones playlist. I thought I knew grace inside out, but I discovered so many new tracks on that playlist. Trucks of our quiz is presented and produced by me. Auntie got entirely on unseated, Gadigal and Ngarigo, our Aboriginal land. Podcast artwork is [00:41:00] illustrated by Luke tribe. You can email me your thoughts, recommendations or tracks of your careers. To tracks of our queries@gmail.com. See you next time.