Carlton Wilborn, life coach and former Madonna dancer

Carlton Wilborn is an actor, life coach, and former dancer with Madonna.

At 25, Carlton was hand-picked to join the Blond Ambition World Tour, documented in the ground-breaking concert film Truth or Dare (or, In Bed with Madonna). He would go on to join her second tour, The Girlie Show, before embarking on a career in acting, and life coaching.

Apologies in advance for slightly iffy audio – I hope the conversation is worth it.

Further reading:

• Follow Carlton on Instagram
• Learn more about his life coaching work
• Check out Carlton dancing with Madonna at the Girlie Show Down Under

The other bits:

• Tracks of Our Queers is recorded and edited between Gadigal and Ngarigo land by me, Andy Gott
• Listen to all of the music discussed in the pod with the Selections from Tracks of Our Queers playlist
• You can email me with your own queer tracks or guest recommendations at tracksofourqueers@gmail.com
• Our beautiful artwork is illustrated by Luke Tribe

Transcript

Andy Gott: [00:00:00] Hello, welcome to Tracks of Our Queers. My name is Andy. Got an each episode. I chat to a fascinating queer person about one song. One album and one artist that have soundtrack of our life. 

Carlton Wilburn is the first face you see in Madonna's Vogue video. I'm quite sure you've seen his face before. 

He was also one of seven young men handpicked to form the dance troupe on her blonde ambition world tour. A show that would break new ground as a pop spectacle, marrying religious iconography with theatrical sets and storylines and filmed both on and off stage for the documentary truth or dare. Or in the UK and Australia imbed with Madonna. 

I first watched this documentary as a curious week, where in my teens, after ordering a DVD online, burning through repeat viewings. I'd show any friend I could convince to [00:01:00] agree to a watch party. A habit. I may not have shaken off to this day. And the resounding reaction from first time, viewers often speaks to the exquisite chemistry on display between a pop superstar at the peak of her powers and the dazzling electric talent of her young, mostly queer dancers. 

Colton was the oldest of the troop at a sprightly 25 and was the only dancer to return for the followup tour. 

The Girlie show. Before going on to work in dozens of TV shows and films, author in books and building his own life coaching business. In 2016, a second documentary strike a pose caught up with the blonde ambition, boys who are now men grappling with their lives as artists. That legacy and a complicated relationship with the woman who first platform them. It's a beautiful companion piece to the original documentary. 

And I strongly recommend that you track it down regardless of what you think about Madonna, as it beautifully depicts queer aging with all of its wisdom and complications. 

It was rewatching this later film that prompted me to reach out to Carlton. [00:02:00] Since starting trucks of our careers, I've always wanted to chat to a blonde ambition dancer, but Colton's understanding of the world art and his own greatness is what drew me in. So powerfully. He actually turned 60 years old, just two days before we spoke. 

So it was a privilege to ask him about his life. Now he's evolving relationship with music And of course, you know, who. 

Annoyingly the audio is a little iffy at times. So I do appreciate your patience and advance. The conversation is wild worth it. 

Tracks of Our Queers is produced, presented, and edited by me. So if you enjoy this episode and feel compelled to shout me a coffee you can do so via the link in the show notes, every penny goes to editing and hosting costs and it's deeply appreciated. Over to Colton.

Carlton Wilburn. Welcome to trucks of our quiz. 

Carlton Wilborn: Thank you so much, Andy. honour to be here, 

Andy Gott: actually. you

are a lifelong dancer,

so music,

has always been there for you. But I'd love to start with, [00:03:00] do you recall the first or

earliest

song or piece of music engraved in your memories? 

Carlton Wilborn: Earliest song that I remember engraved, or that I have engraved in me, I would say the song is Irene Cara's Fame from the movie Fame, the title track Fame. Yeah. I remember Gene Anthony Ray was the actor, in the movie, and, you know, he was kind of doing his thing, and he was very wild, and I felt like I saw myself for the first time in him, and all the freedomness that that movie represented, which to me, Representing this world that [00:04:00] I, you know, was sensing I was a part of.

I don't know that I was ready to own shit at that time, and also, you know, what the message of the song is. fame, I'm going to live forever. I'm going to learn how to fly high. you know, all that stuff, like hope and the possibility for me, you know, especially when I was so much younger, like that song is everything. 

Andy Gott: and can definitely hear in the vocals and the lyrics of

that song,

There's that

urgency and that determination

to prove that this singer. will make some think of themselves, whether you as the listener believe them or not. And I think

that's a big part of why it continues to resonate with people, [00:05:00] because

whether you want

that life for yourself or not, there's a certain something in fake it until you make it.

And when she's singing those songs, it's like, I believe this, therefore you will believe this. It's so powerful.

Carlton Wilborn: Well, you bring up something that's interesting, and I never really thought this before, because, For every time I listen to music, most of the time really dialed in about the artist, right?

But as we're talking about this, I never felt this before. I'm realizing because that message and the relatability was so strong for me. Irene Cara herself almost became invisible.

So it wasn't about her, or me, at all. It was about the song, and what the song did, and activated. That's interesting, I didn't know that I've ever had that. way of receiving music from someone where [00:06:00] I'm really not thinking about pretty much through the song who stinging it and like all of that. 100%.

I might take it way, way back, Carlton. what music was

Andy Gott: playing at home when you were growing up? What were your parents listening to? 

Carlton Wilborn: what was I listening to at home? Michael Jackson, the Isley Brothers, Steve Wonder, you know, Gladys Knight and the Pips. those are the kind of artists that I was listening to. I'm bad with trivia and like, what's the song name? I don't know things like that so well, but like, yeah. soul music, R& B music. Yeah, not a lot of gospel music when I was growing up or if any to be now that I'm thinking about that. 

I heard it out and about and if we went to church, of course but [00:07:00] yeah R& B Soul is the most of what I was hearing and we were playing around my house. 

Andy Gott: And where did you grow up? 

Carlton Wilborn: I'm

from Chicago, 

and now I live in Los Angeles and I've been here for, my gosh, next month, June 7th will be 35 years that I've lived here.

I'm across your work as

Andy Gott: a practicing life coach. You still work as a life coach, correct?

Carlton Wilborn: 

Andy Gott: What have you, what have you learned about yourself in the process? What's one thing that you've learned about you through being a life coach? 

Carlton Wilborn: Great question. so I'm working on another project right now. it's a big project for myself, me getting around TV series and all that. And me and my team are working on that. And so we've got a pilot script and just finished a deck

Andy Gott: Amazing

Carlton Wilborn: on the deck, 10 episode summary and all that. And, and I say all that because. We,you know, me and my business partner, Jolene Adams, we only completed that deck maybe a month or [00:08:00] so ago. huh. Yep. And on the day of completion, which was a Wednesday at 1, I'm here in LA, she's on the East Coast, so for me it was 1 p. m. in the afternoon. Got our eyes crossed, cheese, everything signed off.

Now we can get it out to the world and all that. 

Andy Gott: I

love that feeling 

Carlton Wilborn: I just was so emotional

Andy Gott: Yeah

Carlton Wilborn: Because the show was based loosely on my life. And, and I'm using meats of my life. And then there's elements of my mom is inside the show. Elements of my dad will be inside the show.

I don't really do my siblings right now, but just my mom and my dad, that being said, when I finished it and I realized all the emotions, I saw a value of myself that I had never been in touch with. To such a degree when I saw how much I dug in to do it. And this is the [00:09:00] work, you know, the work that I work to inspire my clients to do or I realized for this thing, which, you know, this particular project really is my God, baby is what I call it. You know, it's been on my soul. And I just turned 60. you know, as life is happening, and I'm gifted in lots of different ways creatively, and so I am hired, and I get inspired to create other things as well. I was appearing to be sidetracked and getting distracted and not digging in to get this thing done right away and I had notes that I would sit on for a fucking year and then I'd finally deal with them.

And so what I learned about myself was a resilience and a fight even with myself that I won't believe in. Game. My. Self. I love that I've learned that about myself. [00:10:00] I have, the work that I do with folks has helped me see, a wholeness and a depth of my heart, Andy. I know that I was not in touch with, I am in life and just in the world and then I'm hired to be a speaker and do all those things.And so, you know, I'm very often used to talking and speaking and. I loved and do love learning and getting reminded when I'm inside the work, coaching how well of a listener I am, because the techniques inside of that, that I have to be mindful about no matter how dense or how much pushback I'm getting The work of a life coach for the kind of coach that I am, you know, I'm a street nigga from the south side of Chicago.

That's how I call myself, so I'm a little bit edgy. I'm a little bit raw, you know, and clients sign contracts when they come home with me to accept [00:11:00] a certain push and a commitment and all of that And it warms me and earths me to feel how well my heart for others can play out.

Those are things that I've learned about myself. 

Andy Gott: I feel like

I'm being life coached by you right now. It's just so beautiful to hear you talk and I have to,

acknowledge that

I've spent many years of my life Watching you, Carlton,

in, depicted in two particular documentaries, which were filmed at very different

parts of your life.

And I watched the first one,

when I was quite young in my teens.

and I watched the second one, Striker Pose, many years later.

And

in both of those films, the people in your life at that time,

look to you and treated you in a certain way because they could feel that

warmth

and, like anchorage and grounding from [00:12:00] you. And it's fascinating to hear you talk about that now, at the age of 60, about only really coming to terms with feeling that in yourself.

It's fascinating to me that, there's people Who have seen that in you

for years before, but it sounds like you're only really coming to connect with that. Within yourself. Now have

I got that right, or?

Carlton Wilborn: yeah. I mean, yes. 

So there was some versions of me knowing myself to certain degrees and so it just keeps getting peeled back into more. And I think that God's richest work is to have us get. Done. And fun done. As we be about the doing of our life. 

Andy Gott: I love that. 

Carlton Wilborn: I'm gonna bring it back to the music. what role does music take in your life today? how do you find new music? when and where do you listen to music? What are you listening to right now? 

Well, I love that you're asking me that question now and in this [00:13:00] year. because a few years ago I was a bit halted to realize I started dating somebody. I was working in Brazil 2018, 2019. He was much younger than me by about 12 years. And I realized dating this dude, it was like, you know, and I was, pimped out in a lovely way.

I was And he had music playing all the time. Came with his speaker, right? and I was aware that I was like, Oh my fucking God. I had lost my sense of music. Integrated into my life on the real, like I was not, I realized I had not been playing music. I hadn't, yeah, I mean, sure. I'll play music. LA is a driving culture. So everyone has bars and so you're on the move. So yes, I have stuck playing there, but just in my own life of my choosing time, I didn't.

So now, yeah, I get to answer that question. 

I like all kinds of music, you know, especially coming from being a [00:14:00] dancer. And a dancer who got trained in the various different, styles that I did. So I got very young, very used to easily listening to, absorbing, getting the nuances of classical music simply from taking ballet class every day. And then the company that I was with, Hubbard Street Dance Company in Chicago, which is the premier contemporary company of Dead City. It always has been. then that brought in, all kinds of other kinds of music from Gershwin to, Steely Dan to George Winston, who's a fabulous pianist, to Frank Sinatra suites things, so I'm hearing all these kinds of things and then I switch from my concert kind of dancer world, and then I move out to LA [00:15:00] and become the Hollywood dancing guy, and now music for my creative life.

Has reached way more dynamics and now I'm dancing to artists

So you know, I love how music has helped me understand the world better and 

see macro 

Andy Gott: that exists. that. Thank you so much. I loved that. and I think we should

just dive into your selections. So we've already discussed Fame by Irene Cara. I'm gonna ask you which album you picked to discuss and why? 

Carlton Wilborn: I picked, George Michael's Faith Album cause again, sitting [00:16:00] inside, you know, the queer, frame, though he was not out to the world, folks that were inside the industry knew what was getting down and the get down, but the get down was getting down.

you know, just super inspired by him and how electrifying the different tracks of that album were and the music videos that came out and, he had Naomi Campbell featured and all these A list drop dead gorgeous models, you know, I was like, what is this album is insane.

And like, yeah, at the club and driving down PCH in my car. And it was Frank, George Michael's faith. Oh my God. It was everything for me. [00:17:00] Yeah. You could dance to it. You could, you could, cook to it. You could drive to it. You could. It's sexy to it, you know, come on now George.

George, can you hear me? Oh lord.

Andy Gott: I'm

so glad you picked this album. 

I could talk about George Michael for hours and hours I have a little bit of shame around George Michael.

My shame comes from the fact that,

I didn't fully appreciate his genius

and body of work until we'd lost him and my dad is a big George Michael fan. so George Michael was

always playing at home and I liked his music

but it wasn't until we lost him that is often the case when

people pass away, you know,

their back catalogue is reappraised, their contributions

to the world are reappraised,

you know, so much news about his

charitable work came out and what an incredibly

Yes, complicated, but kind and loving person he was.

So then I,

over

the past few years, [00:18:00] I've gone to each

of his albums and I've listened to them thoroughly with depth and

Faith is an

incredible album. When you look at it in the part of his life, he's just come out of this like cheesy boy

band. Yes, cheesy, but they had great songs.

And this album is about him

shedding that skin and telling the world, this is the artist I am now.

Not only that, but. I'm an incredible artist, opening the album with the

organ playing to, Freedom, the Wham song, and

then it goes straight in, it's just

so incredible,

and you're right when you say that he wasn't out of the time, but now with retrospect, the album's incredibly queer, and I love it for that.

Carlton Wilborn: Totally. Yeah, totally. and there's so much playfulness in the album. That's the other thing. [00:19:00] And I don't think of myself, you know, I mean, it's funny because I've recently in my life, I've been reconnecting with a lot of folks from my youth and from, you know, in the day and such And, you know, again, I'm older, I've been out here in this Frickin Sharkland doing this Hollywood thing, which is no joke for anybody. And so I've gotten very serious about things. And so I am being reminded by these people coming back into my life how funny I am, or how funny I was, how they knew me, it's like, do you remember how funny you were? You used to always tell jokes and I was like, what, what? And so when I think about George Michael's Faith album, I'm reminded of how much I was appreciating humor.

Andy Gott: Yes. 

Carlton Wilborn: levity of life that that album was all about. and thank you for bringing me in to speak to you right now because I like that. At this age now, I get reacquainted to that playful joy again, and just [00:20:00] organically for how my soul has been reset as of recent. That's all I'm fucking interested in.

It's feeling good, and helping me feel fun, and helping other folks feel fun, and keeping it moving, and it all linked that deep. That's where the fuck I'm at, and that's what music does for me. 

Andy Gott: Carlton, I have to ask you. Did your paths ever cross yourself and George?

Carlton Wilborn: Never in a room, never from a distance, No. No. Yeah. Interesting. 

Talk about people's paths crossing and music and inspiration and all of that Luther Vandross. The crooning motherfucker for the gods. [00:21:00] I got to cross paths with him because we had the same business manager at one point, Bert Padel, out of New York. And, he knew that I lived in L. A. Luther at the time lived in LA and Bert was like, you know, I'm black, he's black.

He knows we both are frisky. He's like, Oh my God, so you know him? He's a client. I'm like, Oh my God, are you kidding me? He's like, would you like to meet him? I was like, what the fuck? He's like, you tell me when I will have him have you over for lunch. And sure enough. So Luther Vandross had me over to his house 

I got to hang with him and that for me. Landing on my soul and crossing with an iconic thing that just, yeah, I mean, you know, and being black and meeting somebody like that, and soul music and R& B music being literally the backdrop of our living life through culture. That was [00:22:00] everything for me, dude.

That was everything for me. And it gave me backbone to do more of what I do as a chocolate, African American is what that means, 

as a same sex interested man. 

Andy Gott: was that something that was obvious

in the ether that you and Luther understood each other's sexualities?



Carlton Wilborn: Well,When you work deep in the industry and you're in the 

insular circles, ain't nobody saying too much publicly. 

Andy Gott: yeah.

Carlton Wilborn: So yes. 

Andy Gott: What has soundtracked your life as a queer person,

and you

Why did you

choose this person?

Carlton Wilborn: Well, I mean, the artist is Madonna. M is what I call her. the artist, because Jesus, where do I begin? You know, [00:23:00] I had to choose that artist, this is great. Andy, I really thank you because, the timing of when we're getting to do this, and all the stuff that I said at the very top that I've been very introspective about. about. One of the big, big, big shifts when I spoke about when I finished the deck and I was all emotional for two days that I live from and inside of now is I felt on that day, and this is speaking into the artist, I felt on that day that, seriously dude, and I'm still with it and working it and looking at it, I felt like a huge shroud of misunderstandings get taken off of my soul. So, when I have that, and I look at why I chose Madonna, I've had such a weaving conflicted thing with [00:24:00] in my life and what I have allowed her to represent for me or not. So 

wonderful music question and the artist, I mean, I guess I'll just, 

inspiration first is the 

word comes up regarding Madonna. I'm a little black boy from the South Side of Chicago, so when Madonna was dropping in the world and dropped, of course I was aware of her, but it wasn't really something that I was all pulled into. I'd never bought her album for any of that until I got hired. but what I've come to is realizing there's so talk about tentacles, the music of Madonna as an 

artist for me, I'll first think about from a, being a creative, right? And looking at somebody that used [00:25:00] so much of her own personal, journey to just make music. But, you know, this woman has been very clear of her order here on earth

to activate people, to, you know, uplift the marginalized and the disenfranchised and all of that. So music is doing that. I'm a dancer. I like to dance. This bitch, Madonna is stunning. And listen, she's a dancer first. 

she knows dynamics and rhythms and timings and how to fuck with it and how to take it off the regular track, you know, because dancers, as much as we are really good at following form and following order, [00:26:00] what I love about us are the moments when we're given a chance to do our own truth without following the system's way that they want us to present something. And then, so, she really, her music as an artist for the journey that her career has been, that I've been biked into, has opened up the possibilities for what, is me, this is what I see, for what can be possible for the human. So, as an artist, Madonna as an artist has forced me to question myself. 

Because one, just her music. Two, because of my direct and very personal Relationship with her and what all that is about has not been about. Music has been informing me about that the whole time, has been releasing me sometimes, her music, about my [00:27:00] relationship with her. 

Her music when I'm in some hissy fit about some shit has, oh fuck, motivated me again. That juxtaposition at the same time. Oh, I heard from the bitch, but damn, that's a dope ass track.

I want to listen to it again. What? What are you doing, dude? Fascinating. And I love it because it's helped me to see all these colors of myself that I get and just the way that I am, Andy, and the way that I look by God. I'm an investigator. I'm a researcher. 

And so this artist and Madonna has, and the music from track to track to lyric, 

her music, her as an artist. I'm so grateful that I'm healed from a lot of my own tangled stuff that I had. 

Andy Gott: 

Carlton Wilborn: About that relationship. 

Andy Gott: There would have been some complicated parts, right, where [00:28:00] you probably just didn't want to hear a Madonna song at all for a long time. 

Carlton Wilborn: Sure. At certain moments. but again, then, literally within the same week, oh, fuck, what that track actually did kind of say that, and that kind of does make sense. but what's lovely is, where I'm left today is utter excitement. that I feel because of that artist about my journey, my life 

Andy Gott: is what that artist gets me to look at and has informed, not just moments of my life, also because she's been around as long as she's been around, so that's the artist. 

asked you a

question and you answered. 

that was, that was a journey. you've said that you've just

turned 60, which is

an [00:29:00] incredible, and you've achieved so much with your life. You've written books, you've starred in multiple television shows, 

And even just saying, you know, you've Survived 35

years in

the shark tank of L. A.

Like, the thought of even me trying to

move to L. A. for one year gives me the heebie jeebies because of the

resilience and the thick skin you would

need to survive. And not only have you survived, but you thrived. But, The way that

so many people have been

introduced to you is as that 26 year old on stage in the Blonde Ambition tour, and you've spoken about this yourself, but there was even then a clear divide between yourself and like those brothers that you shared that stage with, in that you were a little bit older, you had a different role on stage, and it felt, it was actually very clear that While

Madonna really leaned into

that kind of mother hen vibe with the others, she looked at you like a peer.

And there was a different level of respect [00:30:00] there. and even as, you know, you were that pillar who carried her through those more emotional parts of the tour. I

say this all because

there was a reason that I wanted to speak to you. I wanted to connect with you.

On your outlook, and I won't be asking you questions you've answered a million times, but I just hope that you realize that you that you've been part of a legacy which

There are so many

people, queer and not queer, who have been witness to, this impact that you've left on them.

think it's particularly special to then go decades later to the companion piece, Strike a Pose, that document of aging and wisdom and growth and, How things change over time. You've really played a massive role in pieces of art

and culture which

have left a huge impact on queer people.

So I guess I just wanted to say thank you, whether you realized you were doing that at the time or not. 

Carlton Wilborn: Thank you. I [00:31:00] did not know so specifically then, right? But I will say this. You know, and this loops to this, what I spoke about at the top and we weren't here on this project and this TV show, I've had, I've known since I was eight years old, Andy, it was put on my soul, 

when I grow up, I'm supposed to speak to thousands of people. And I don't know what exact words it was, but they were words like, speak to thousands of people about, like, giving in their power.

I remember hearing that when I was a kid, and it's been so on me all along, so now, in my life, at this age, with all the different things that I do, 

I realize, wow, it is cool to be me. 

I am just really delighted, man, that, I get to live where I'm at right now in my life, where I am grounded and [00:32:00] rooted because I know how small I am and how much all the things that I think don't matter, they really don't. And what I worry about and all the years I worried being HIV diagnosed and Struggling with myself to get that information out there. And then I realized at the same time, and get to see now, that how fucking amazing you are to have learned and researched and loved yourself. I'm getting emotional right now because part of that shroud of the misunderstandings that got taken off of me, was like I, I really was not giving it up to myself. Most of my life, most of my grown ass adult life were all that [00:33:00] I've done and been about. Not just my fucking razzle dazzle shit, but the grinding grit and the hell of doing this thing called life.

So I thank you for acknowledging that. I'm thankful that I have had whatever kind of being who I be in the world that has somebody like you in your generation reaching out to somebody like me after so many times.

So all this shit is just yeah, catch up, nigga. So, thank you. This has been really, this is definitely, and I will, and, and, and it is true, this has been one of the most enjoyable interviews that I've been asked to be involved in from my career. Not true, because you set up your podcast, this podcast that you're doing is such a fresh frame, you know?

and. [00:34:00] You know, all I could do when you gave me the pitch was look at what it's about. And I thought, well, who is this? This is different. Okay. Let me give this young dude a shot. Give him some juice. Why not? He's worthy. He's trying to, Parve his own way and not just say he's a journalist asking a bunch of fucking questions that we're bored and uninterested with.

Thank you, Andy. 

Andy Gott: I've spoken to so many people on this, podcast who are heroes of mine, and you're one

of them and that makes me feel so lucky because

Well, that's all I want, really.

That's all I

want to do. I want to connect with people

who I look up to, who I can learn from, who have stories to tell that I think need to be told. but every now and then, like you've just said about

you, When the doubts come in and you think, what am I doing this for? Or like, is anyone really connecting with this?

It's, game [00:35:00] changing to be reminded that people do connect with it. And that people do think that there's something to it. Because it is,

you

know, music is life. 

and Yeah, yeah,

Thank you so much.

I

have taken up nearly an hour of your time, so I'm gonna let you go very soon. But before I say goodbye, Carlton, I have a very, very close friend. I'm from the UK, but I'm talking

to you

from Sydney, Australia.

and I've seen you many times.



Carlton Wilborn: I lived in Sydney for nine months. What?! danced with 

Andy Gott: when was that? 

Carlton Wilborn: Company.

I

Andy Gott: Oh gosh.

Carlton Wilborn: Beach, dude. 

Andy Gott: what a beautiful part of 

of the city. 

Carlton Wilborn: Stunning little area,

Andy Gott: what, When did

you work with the dance company? 

Carlton Wilborn: that was before I moved out here. So, this is after I left Hubbard.

Andy Gott: you've kind of partially answered my question then, because the question I heard from, I've got a very close friend, and he is born and bred in Sydney, and

he was in the crowd for the Girly Show

at the Sydney

Cricket Ground and saw you perform. And I asked him, I said, Matt.

I'm talking to Carlton, do

you have [00:36:00] a question for him? And Matt said,

I'd love to know what Carlton thought about Sydney when he was here with the girly show because I heard rumours that the dancers would go out clubbing. 

Carlton Wilborn: um, he's correct. We did wild clubbing. And what did I think about it? Listen, I love Australia. I loved it for how my world with Australia got to be, Why did I want to go there years ago? I think it was Duran Duran. Wild Boys was a music video that they had. That thing. And they have all that scaffolding and all the dancers. I don't know if you know this, but I was mesmerized by that video. And I was like, what is going on? Come to find out those athletes in that video was the entire [00:37:00] cast, were the members from the Sydney Dance Company. That was the Sydney Dance Company.

in that video and I was like, what? That a dance company was getting its company members to do things like this? I had to go there. So when I got there, listen, and I'm black and I'm American and I'm brown and y'all in Australia like y'all chocolate. America. I, yeah the fuck y'all do. Yeah, I. now this was, okay, okay, you and Matt, Matt, are you listening, this was interesting, and that, being in Australia when I was there, I don't know what it's like now, but when I was there, It was weird to experience racism from the opposite side, where in America, you're chastised, don't nobody want you around, everybody's spooked by you because you're black. And I found [00:38:00] myself,I was in a department store and I'm talking to the woman behind the counter in such and such, and where are you? And she's asking me where I'm from and I'm American. And she with delight was like, oh my God, can you come to, I'm having a party.

I would love my friends to meet you. They've never met a Black American. And I'm like, bitch, am I fucking a dancing monkey? Like what? It was the weirdest, but it was weird in that it was comforting because it was like, this is the first time in my life when I was in Sydney, I ever heard anybody get excited about that. But then it was also like, wait, but that's also saying, so it was, so that part about Australia was there for me. I love Chinese food. Y'all get all kinds of fast food, Asian food. I don't know if you [00:39:00] still do. That's what you had back then. I was like, thumbs up. yeah, man, I loved Sydney. It was fun. it felt very like home in how gorgeous it is and just aesthetically just bright and people felt free in Sydney. I felt that, you know. So, here's my long ass answer with Matt. 

Andy Gott: I'm sure he'll be thrilled.

He'll be thrilled. the final question from me is, I believe, correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that you were

recently in the audience at Madonna's Celebration tour last year.And I've seen clips of you.You're on the stage in the Vogue sequence.

Your face is there. But 

what was your initial

emotional reaction to going to that specific tour, which is a retrospective of her career, which you featured so much in.

What was it like seeing that on stage? 

Carlton Wilborn: very nice. And I think in regards to the music and the show and the elements of the thing, as a creative who also [00:40:00] produces things and all of that, I am less concerned about what new song she's going to tell from her story. Like, I mean, yeah, she's gonna say some shit about her youth but I didn't really care if it was that song or this, Didn't care about that. I was really caring about her and they're watching the show to see how well my friend was or not, I'm aware that she's older and is this going to be her own tour and her body and her leg and how's she really getting through? So, you know, and it was also great cause this is only the second time I've seen her, I only saw her for the first time in my life.

When she did the Madame X thing and she did the theater version, which fucking amazing. it was great to be invited, you know, to be gifted tickets from her and her team. they just offered those and, you know, not everybody got that and not everybody gets to be right up [00:41:00] on the stage.

I know my value with her and, really. Thankful to see, speaking to the elements inside the Celebration Tour, that I have been meaningful, multiple times in multiple ways for her and she always finds ways to keep me alive in the eyes of those that have followed. 



Andy Gott: Perfect. Carlton Wilburn, you are queer and thank you very much for your

tracks. 

Carlton Wilborn: Oh, Thank you, Andy. you, thank you, thank 

you. 

Andy Gott: You can find out more about Colton at links in this episode, show notes, including his life coaching business, which serves clients both in LA and online. You can currently find both the embed with Madonna and struck post documentaries on YouTube at time of recording. Don't just stand that. Let's get to it. Last episode, I forgot to credit the illustrator of my beautiful new podcast artwork, Mr. Luke tribe, who you can also [00:42:00] find in the show notes. Tracks of our quiz is presented and produced by me. 

Anti-cop. Entirely on unseated category and the Carragher Aboriginal land. You can email me your own tracks of your queers or guest recommendations to trucks of our careers@gmail.com. See you next time.