Fenton Bailey, producer and co-creator of RuPaul's Drag Race

Fenton Bailey is a co-founder of production studio World of Wonder, the home of RuPaul's Drag Race.

Together with Randy Barbato, Fenton has creatively collaborated with RuPaul since the mid-80s, helping birth his albums, imagery, VH1 chat show, even directing the iconic "Supermodel" music video, before launching the queer cultural juggernaut that is Drag Race in 2009. Over 25 international variations are currently airing around the world.

Fenton joins me for the first episode of Season 4 to discuss an enormous list of tracks that have soundtracked his queer life. I hope you enjoy the chat!

Further reading:

• Follow Fenton on Instagram
• Learn more about the Drag Defence Fund
• Purchase Fenton's book on the phenomenon of television, ScreenAge
• Check out Nelson Sullivan's video archive on YouTube

The other bits:

• Tracks of Our Queers is recorded and edited between Gadigal and Ngarigo land by me, Andy Gott
• Listen to all of the music discussed in the pod with the Selections from Tracks of Our Queers playlist
• You can email me with your own queer tracks or guest recommendations at tracksofourqueers@gmail.com
• Our beautiful artwork is illustrated by Luke Tribe

Transcript

[00:00:00] 

Andy Gott: Hello Welcome to tracks of our queers. My name is Andy Gott. And each episode I chat to a fascinating queer person about one song, one album, and one artist that I've soundtrack battle life. This is the fourth collection of conversations on Tracks of Our Queers. And we've had a few new listeners join since last season. 

So a very big hello to you all. 

Since embarking on my own teenage journey of exploration and both my identity and music, I've been intrigued by the idea. That queer people have a particularly intense connection with music. 

perhaps not all queer people, but a lot of us. I don't recall the soundtracks accompanying those pivotal life moments of coming out. Falling in and out of love the sheer fear, confusion, and excitement of being queer. Music shows up for us everywhere on the emotional spectrum, from joy to despair and back again. And the creative output of those we idolize can often become anthems to live by. [00:01:00] It's also worth pointing out that sometimes we just love a big camp banger. 

My first new guests I'm relationship with music is its own world of wonder. 

Fenton Bailey met his creative collaborator, Randy. Barbato not long after moving to New York city from Portsmouth, England in the early eighties. Together. 

soon formed the fabulous Pop-Tarts a musical duo often found a NYC hotspots like the limelight or the pyramid. Before a trip to Atlanta found them in a street encounter with one RuPaul, Charles. 

Fenton. And Randy went on to produce RuPaul's first album before directing the music video for supermodel. And have stayed firmly planted on the roller coaster ever since. Including creating a little known reality TV series in 2009 called RuPaul's drag race. Today, Fenton, Randy. And of course, Ru executive produce more than 25 international drag races. A global phenomenon indeed. and whether you watch or [00:02:00] enjoy the show or not, it's impact on drag and indeed queer culture. 

And the last 15 years is simply unparalleled. 

outside of drag race, Fenton through his World of Wonder production company. Has had his creative fingers in everything from the nineties club cave, classic party monster to the Tammy Faye documentary, which inspired an Oscar winning film. I'm thrilled to welcome fence and tracks of our careers. 

And I hope you enjoy the outrageous variety of music we cover in this episode. Tracks of our Queers is not produced by a team of 20 at our conglomerate back studio, but like many incredible podcasts Outback. It's an entirely one person show. Don't cry for me, Argentina. That's just how I like it. But if you do enjoy this episode and felt compelled to shout me a coffee. You can do so via the link in the show notes, every penny goes to editing and hosting costs. And it's deeply appreciated. 

Over to Fenton. 



Andy Gott: Fenton Bailey, welcome to Tracks of our Careers.

Fenton Bailey: thank you for having me. [00:03:00] Thrilled.

Andy Gott: tell me about your earliest musical memory.

Fenton Bailey: Oh, it was probably like, Peter and the wolf. It was a sort of record where there'd be a phrase or a musical instrument. And then some story about this Peter guy and the wolf. That is literally my earliest memory. But then also I think my first album was a T Rex album.

I remember, putting it on and listening to it on this old record player. I was just horrified by the lyrics. it was like, stripped on the beach. I want to tickle your peach. It's a rip off. I was like, Oh my gosh, I just thought this was like Hot Lava, Metal Guru. I didn't know.

It was like, and my mother was sort of, Oh, 

Andy Gott: Very saucy. Was that, a record that you purchased yourself or did you acquire it 

Fenton Bailey: No, I actually purchased it myself. Yes. With my money. So it was a big deal because you know, buying, I mean, you know, this is ancient [00:04:00] history stuff, but buying records was a big deal in the day. You'd go and look at the cover. I mean, you know, they were the people's art, the sort of Rembrandts and the grand old masters was like an album cover and you 

just look at it for hours while listening

to the record. 



Andy Gott: you grew up in Portsmouth, I believe, and then went to university in Oxford. What music reminds you of that time, that formative period of like late teens, early 20s?

Fenton Bailey: it was definitely the whole sort of 1980 thing was like, you know, every now and then, I guess, historically, people think they're living in the future. And it was definitely a time for like, it was the first phase of electropop drum machines and sequences. things like, Fade to Gray by Steve Strange, Underpass by John Fox, [00:05:00] Lucky Number by Lena Lovitch, and Money by the Flying Lizards.

You know, it was this sort of brutal electro thing that was happening. It was fantastic. at boarding school, I'd listen before that to, Devo, which was very hard to get ahold of Jocko, Homo, and Mongoloid. And, and you could hear those songs sometimes on John Peel's, Radio One show.

But I do remember I sent off for the record, and I guess it had to come from America it was just so thrilling and exciting because you just couldn't, you just couldn't, you It was, it was scarcity was the, the thing you 

just couldn't get your hands on a lot of stuff, you know? 

Andy Gott: Bring scarcity back, perhaps. 

Fenton Bailey: Well, you know, I do have a theory

that the paradox of choice is that in a world in which you can stream anything, listen to anything, do you actually consume more or do you actually consume less?

I kind of tripped on this early with the iPod. I thought, God, the iPod is such an amazing thing. In 

fact, I think, 

Andy Gott: Here we go. this [00:06:00] is history.

Fenton Bailey: Do I still have my iPods here somewhere. Oh, 

here it is. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Look at 

that. Oh my 

God. 

Andy Gott: What a beauty. 

Fenton Bailey: beautiful old bit of tech. But I noticed that as I was going through songs and listening to anything I could at any point, I was listening to less, I just get impatient and go on to the next.

So as opposed to the radio, which would just be what they're playing and you would listen to it and hope that they played your favorite song 

or Top of the Pops, of

course, 

Andy Gott: I think you're definitely on to something there, and don't get me wrong, The algorithm has gifted me some incredible new discoveries, but I also wonder, through the nature of the algorithm, How much am I getting?

Which might make me feel a bit uncomfortable at first. You know, that whole concept of an acquired taste. I still want to be discovering things which I might not initially enjoy. And I don't know if the algorithm is servicing those kind of things that 

John Peel on Radio One might. 

Fenton Bailey: it's definitely not. So it's, it's not because the algorithm is [00:07:00] programming to you. You are not actively following your own quirks and things that suddenly pique your interest. You know, that's, that has been eliminated from the algorithm. There's nothing wrong with the algorithm, butit's a bit like driving looking in the rearview mirror the 

whole time.

It doesn't really tell you where you're 

going.

Andy Gott: One of my treasured queer tropes, if you will, is that of the big move, the leap of faith from the small town to the big smoke, which in your case was moving from early 80s England to literally New York City, the biggest smoke of them all.was the It sounds so obvious, but what was the force in your words propelling you to do so?

Why were you so compelled to go to New York? 

Fenton Bailey: that, you know, that question is. You one of life's great questions. You know, like, why do people move to New York? and and I have no good answer other than I needed to. You say, why was it compelled? I don't really know. I was just compelled. [00:08:00] And I knew that I didn't want to stay in England.

I didn't really like New York. I didn't really like living in England and America just seemed so much more exciting, but it wasn't really America. It was, it was specifically New York. I do remember that very first night walking through New York. Down 5th Avenue, it was Labor Day weekend, and it was the weirdest feeling because on the one hand, it was like the heat and the smells and that was all totally new, but on the other hand, I knew it already.

I had seen it, we'd all seen it in the, in comics, on TV, I mean, especially on TV. But it wasn't necessarily any one. I mean, there was Quentin Crisp, who in The Naked Civil Servant had moved to New York. And for some reason I remember that as being a sort of, Ah, yeah, that's what I should do. There was, of course, Andy Warhol and all [00:09:00] that.

I was much too terrified to impose myself or sort of even go near the factory or Andy Warhol. But I just knew it was there.You know, when I got there, I discovered so many things that I hadn't visualized or knew, like, you 

the 

work of Keith Haring, or Pyramid Club, 

or I mean,

Andy Gott: if we could narrow it down to something, it would be a deep compulsion to be exposed to these new things, newness. But people like you, that kind of queer connection, but things that you weren't experiencing in England.

Fenton Bailey: yes, I think that the queer thing was obviously there, but I don't know that I owned it. I wasn't In the closet? But I I just didn't. why would I move to New York. Because I was queer. Well, it's, that's exactly why I moved to New York. But at the end of the night I was I mean, although I do remember actually I think one of my first nights.

calling the gay helpline I can't remember what it wasand I said, Oh, what's going on? You know, like, and they, this guy went into this long thing about foot [00:10:00] fucking. And I was like, I was horrified. I mean, you know, sort of terrified. I was like, really people do like, and he's like, Oh yes, you've you know, go here, go there.

And because I absolutely 

did not go, 

Andy Gott: I can imagine you in a similar way to hearing the T Rex vinyl with your 

mum, that 

Fenton Bailey: Same old story. I tell you, not much has changed. It's the same old story. In fact, one of the first movies my mom took me, you remember the carry on movies, this very funny kind of rivaled my, I don't know what possessed her, but my dear mom took me rest in peace to movies. And it was carry on camping.

I mean, there could not have been a more appropriate choice, but, but also inappropriate choice. Cause this was a nudist camp. And 

I mean, it was 

like, Yeah, well, you 

Andy Gott: It's kind of wild looking back that that kind of stuff was in the cinema in the in the 60s and 70s. We think of England as being a particularly prudish time back then, but the the desire was there clearly for Barbara Windsor's [00:11:00] boobs in

Fenton Bailey: absolutely. And, and camp had, had been kind of struck through or, or ran through English culture, kind of like, lettering in rock, you know, it was like, you know, are you being served dad's army, Mrs. Slocum's pussy. I mean, It was like it was like Dame Edna Everidge, Kenny Everett. I mean, on at Rocky Horror Show. I mean, on and on and on so much really 

out there 

stuff. 

Andy Gott: Absolutely. Glorious. And I'm gonna, sadly, Paula's back from Camp seventies UK So New York, you moved to New York. But then I have to ask, what were you doing in Atlanta? Because I know about your journey in Atlanta, but the reason I ask is it was an incredibly fruitful time in that city for music with bands like the B52s and REM floating in and out.

So how did you get from New York down to Atlanta? 

Fenton Bailey: Didn't really have much to do with REM for sure. You know, the bands that we were turned on and excited by were, were [00:12:00] the Now Explosion, Larry T's Palais de Beauté, And of course, Ru's own band, Wee Wee Pole. And there was this very underground scene in Atlanta. Dick Richards was the kind of impresario at the whole thing.

He was a lovely lovely guy. And he ran with his friend Funtone Records, and all these acts was signed to Funtone Records, which was completely do it yourself independent label, also had. The American Music Show, which was a public access show. so that's sort of how we fell into that, you know, that's the extraordinary thing about Dick who's, who's no longer with us, but I think it was probably through Nelson, his best friend, Nelson Sullivan, who was the guy who was videotaping everything going on in East Village, that we met Dick.

And I guess through that, that led to Ru and, We were [00:13:00] ourselves performing. I mean, we never lived in Atlanta, but we 

were touring and 

Andy Gott: This was the fabulous Pop 

Fenton Bailey: it was a famous project. yeah. 

Andy Gott: Yeah, yeah. Okay. Speaking of, so that was your own band founded around the mid 80s,

Fenton Bailey: Mid 

eighties. Yeah.

Andy Gott: just want to give a random shout out to I didn't click on this until I was doing my research recently, but your song, New York City Beat, was actually sampled by Armin van Halden in 2007.

I was like, this is how I know this song. 

Wow. 

Fenton Bailey: entirety, he sampled it. And we only heard about it. Ru had said to us, Oh, you're, you're, you know, it's a big hit in Europe. We're like, really? Don't 

think so. This was years after we had released it, of 

Andy Gott: Yeah, It was huge in the UK. Yeah, all over the radio. 

Fenton Bailey: No one told us. I mean, that's like, it was Rue who said, Oh, yeah.

And we didn't, we thought, Oh, he must've muddled it up with [00:14:00] something else. And, and it wasn't until one night we were watching TV and the trailer for the movie, the Zohan came on And it was in the trailer. And that's when we were like, Oh my, that's when we realized next morning called the lawyer. So, yeah. And that was, it was literally 25 years later that we got a payout, you know,

Andy Gott: Well, the most gloriousform of passive income I can imagine. So I hope you got that big royalty check. 



Fenton Bailey: we did, we got the whole lot. I mean, It was, 

amazing. It was just so funny. It was, 

Andy Gott: My main question for you about the band actually is I'd love to know any of your recollections of the actual nuts and bolts of recording demos and albums in that period, in that kind of scrappy DIY environment.

It's completely different to today when we could record music right [00:15:00] now on our phones and laptops. How were you making it happen?

Fenton Bailey: it was you go into the studio was really expensive cause I'd have a two inch tape, 48 track machines, and we would scrimp and save and then sort of sell ourselves to get some kind of deal or, you know, studio time. so every moment, was always really. tense, I guess, in the studio, because it was like, you know, every every second, the money was just slipping through your fingers. 

So, I mean, what, that was a great thing about so much of what was happening downtown. was it was all, it took that sort of revolutionary call of punk, you know, anyone can do it and you just have figure out a way 

to do it. 

Andy Gott: It just sounds like such a hungry environment in the most fabulous way. Just, and maybe that's still what New York is like right now, but that particular 80s period was just bubbling and bursting with people, dying to get their talent out there and for people to be exposed to [00:16:00] it. 

Fenton Bailey: just a little bit before that in the like seventies, it had been I'm an artist in my loft and I, I'm not going to sell out, but something changed, you know, with the with Reagan, there was just this sort of naked ambition 

And I think purest expression of that almost was Madonna that kind of material girl, that sort of cheery wink, wink, you know, give me the money. Like, And you had all these voices like struggling to be heard. And when you said,dying to be famous, I mean, it was also this time of AIDS. And so people literally were. And you know what? I I think two things. One is the sort of The commodification and the ambition have not really been given their due. They get slightly of a side eye, but no, everybody wanted to make it And there was nothing wrong with that And then I guess the other thing was absolutely people were dying, but I think in retrospect, people make it seem to be some sort of morgue like also very [00:17:00] morbid atmosphere, but it wasn't, you know, it was.

defiant, I think, you know, people were doing stuff because they knew about this horror. And there was this sort of like, reaction to that to create, I think. 

Andy Gott: It's almost like the thing that you said about being in the studio and literally time is ticking, but on a bigger scale, people. Feeling like time is running out, perhaps?

Fenton Bailey: It's interesting, you know, with Madonna, so many of 

her songs. 

have time in them. Tick, tick, tock. You know, like, it's an, it's just an, there are two themes in Madonna's thing. One is I, she uses me and I so much. And then the other is it's 

always about tick tock, hurry up, get on with it. 

Andy Gott: Waiting, 

Fenton Bailey: yes. Four minutes to save the world. You know, it's 

like, it's a blesser. 

Andy Gott: [00:18:00] When I pitched this interviews concept with You Fenton, You sent over an extraordinary list of tracks that have resonated with your life as a queer person, and I have to say it was almost like you were waiting for someone to ask because they just flowed from you.

music is clearly universal and humans love music, but is there something in your own tastes or the music that truly resonates with you that you think is connected to your identity as a queer man, 

Fenton Bailey: No, I do 

think they are related. I do love music but I've always loved, apology really, pop music. And I've, I always have loved electronic music because I'm not someone who Personally, who can play. or really has the patience to learn how to play. 

I don't particularly like dancing, actually.

I'm not really a dancer, but I love listening to dance. I had something about it. I just love it. so, you know, something like the Pet Shop Boys and, and, and, and the use of electronic drum machinesthings that would look down on [00:19:00] them and look discount, like, you know, well, that's not real music.

And I always love that. Oh, this authentic argument. This just, idea that rock and 

roll is authentic just drives me insane. the same way that the idea that punk music is is real rebellion. No, no, no, no, no. It, you know, punk music was really performatively rebellious in order to be sold. It was inherently, it was like, buy my records, buy me.

You know, it was just a 

Andy Gott: is, this is the behind the curtain thing that we as queer people can tap into so easily, in that if your idea of authenticity is Ed Sheeran at Wembley Stadium, fine, go enjoy Ed Sheeran, but he is not any more authentic for holding a guitar than someone who's produced their beats on their laptop. 

Fenton Bailey: a thousand a thousand percent, and God bless Milly Vanelli. I, mean, they were just sort of persecuted. And, and I,I've, the [00:20:00] argument against lip syncing, that is one of the sort of old age, old things in music. It's like, why not lip sync? Nothing wrong with it. And I was, I think personally drawn to pop music because I couldn't really play.

I can't really sing. I can't really dance. I'm fundamentally not musical, but I love it. And I love the, The combination of sound with this was the era of MTV, and just the excitement of that, of sort of putting sound and vision together, kind of creating this sort of a package.

Andy Gott: you just created a lovely little segue there. lip syncing for your life is absolutely integral to every Drag Race episode and has been from season one, episode one. Can you please give a behind the scenes,info into how do you plan to do that?

Upcoming season's lip sync songs. Do you have a long list which goes to a short list? Do you move it around based on challenges or guests? 

Fenton Bailey: Ru loves music and Ru has perhaps every track released, organized on his [00:21:00] iPod and is just, you know, he kind of runs that side of things, you know, and then, and you know, and then there's the slightly 

boring part of having clear the songs and license them from, you know, the record labels and the music 

publishers and what have you and so 

Andy Gott: is there a track that you still haven't been able to nail due to licensing or rights? 

Fenton Bailey: not that I can 

think of. 

Andy Gott: Well, the show is now such a huge platform that I don't know why anyone would say no. 

Fenton Bailey: I know. I wish they'd give us the music for free,

Andy Gott: Yes, yes. 

right now, as we speak, Global All Stars is currently airing, which is this Avengers esque culmination of years of international franchises which now have contributed to this spectacular cast of the world's finest. Was this ever a blue sky dream for you, or did it always feel like an inevitability?

Fenton Bailey: No, not at all. It never felt like inevitable. You know, if you work in television [00:22:00] most of your shows are going to fail or not get renewed. And you want that. if you don't love them, you wouldn't make them, you know, it's like, it's a lot of lot of work. So there was always hope and faith, I guess, but quite how it turned out could never have predicted But you know, it makes sense in retrospect because I think Ru is such an incredible talent and, you know, we worked with Rueproduced his one of his solo albums, Star Booty. And, you know, we just have always, it's not just always believed in her. I think just always recognized Ru's, singular stardom and related the incredible talent with charisma, uniqueness, nerve and talent of of the Queens.

They are artists, you know, and, and without that, and without Ru, without that, I, wouldn't be here having this 

conversation, you know?

Andy Gott: As a Brit myself, I do have to give a particular shout [00:23:00] out to Drag Race I'll never, ever forget. I started watching the US season around about season 4, season 5. So then, Cut to how many years later when the UK franchise comes around, I'll just never forget that experience of viewing the first series, which is this BBC co production, which brought the very best of the US franchise, yet absolutely nailed UK culture and felt so deeply authentic.

So I'd love to know from you as a Brit, what was important to you in launching this UK cousin to such an American production? 

Fenton Bailey: When Randy and I were, we're still doing the Pop Tarts, we we spent about a year in the UK And we would go every Thursday night down to the Vauxhall Tavern to see Stars of the Future and The Divine David. And actually, Lily Savage. And remember turning to Randy in the pub saying, you know, it's too bad.

Andy Gott: Lily Savage is so good. It's too bad she'll never be on TV.Well, she was filthy right 

Fenton Bailey: Yes! Oh no! [00:24:00] filthy. Fantastically filthy. So, so there was that. But also a love of British drag and a recognition that it was different to U. S. drag. And Randy And I both knew that. And I do remember it took a long time to find a home for the show.

We found the right home, but it took a long time. And think it was probably the Guardian was like, Oh, you know, moaning about how this UK production was coming and how we were going to fuck it up and not, you know, and I'm glad to say, you know, when Bag of Chips walked out the first, first episode and was like, said something about being covered in daddy's sauce, I was like, you know, it's gonna be fine. Right? You know, it was like, it was just, it was because it is fundamentally different. And and I think. That's always been the goal with any version of Drag Race, is that it should be true to where it's made, 

true to where comes from. 

Andy Gott: and like the Daddy's Source, like any of those bizarre [00:25:00] UK references that I'mthat we all just cackle at when they're on screen, I just imagine an American viewer, like, googling, what's Daddy's Source? And just being so, yeah, correctly confused, 

Fenton Bailey: I mean, Ru has always had a thing for England. He would, he often used to say, Would you like a biscuit? And just pull about laughing. So, you 

know. 

Okay. speaking of, let's get into your selections. All iconic in their own way and, and actually all kind of gender non conforming legends. No surprise there. So starting off with the track that you picked, which track did you pick and why? Sissy That Walk by Ru Paul. It's just one of those, it's a banger, right? Straight out of the box. But also this glorious message of defiance. And I really loved its [00:26:00] embrace of, sissies,of, of the sort of, you know, in in not just straight culture, but gay culture can be discriminatory towards effeminacy.

And this is a sort of anthem for for being Sissy. And it's, I think it's the most glorious, joyous track. I mean, Roo's turned out so many amazing songs and but Sissy that 

walk is like, you 

know, 

Andy Gott: it is a banger. I mean, end of. It's, also 10 years old this year. It's, it came out in 2014, I believe. And, beyond what, I, mean, my first thoughts go to, I, I recognized around that time when The Sun came out that, Like my straight friends were aware of the song. It seemed to cross over into the culture outside of Drag Race or outside of those who knew RuPaul's music in a way that probably spoke to it just being this incredible banger.

But it also reminds me of, you know, season six of Drag Race was an incredibly special time. The show had been building in strength and popularity and impact And was [00:27:00] really firing on all cylinders by that time. And it really felt like it was. In the culture, from a viewer's point of view. That song goes hand in hand with that for me.

Yeah, 

Fenton Bailey: think he's done something like 17 studio albums. I mean, that he spends an enormous amount of. time and energy doing music. And I mean, he, he's a sort of it's not just a Ru's a great artist, but he's also an encyclopedia of so that you know, you can hear the influences and the references, 

Andy Gott: yeah. I remember many, many years ago, seeing one of his tweets. Ru tweeted something like, my favourite Blondie song is Dreaming. 

And to me, I was like, oh my gosh, Dreaming's my [00:28:00] favourite song, as in it's not one of it's not one of Blondie's biggest, you know, well known smashes, it is fairly well known, but to me it wasn't like, oh we have the same Blondie favourite song, but , there's something special about Dreaming, it's got that melancholy quality to it, where it's not one of the most obvious ones, and I feel like these are they're like totems of people who kind of get it. there's like the big smashes, which everyone loves. And then there's like the B level songs, which were a bit more special to those who, I don't know, I'm kind of waffling here a 

Fenton Bailey: No, I get it. I'm totally with you Yes. mean, although, you 

know, Atomic you know.

and Hanging on the Telephone. I 

mean, give me a, I love songs about telephones. 

Mary Wilson, Telephone 

Song.

and, ELO have a Telephone Song. 

I mean, 

yeah, love a good Telephone Song.

Andy Gott: 

Fenton, which album did you pick and why? [00:29:00] 

Fenton Bailey: I mean, so it's hard. Right. But, but, I think an album that's just stuck with me sorts of ways is Soft Cell nonstop erotic cabaret. it's weird because it sort of, it has aged so well in a way that a lot of other albums by other artists who were huge have not.

something about it that is almost like almost like in my head the whole time. I mean, there are times I will wake up singing Sex Dwarf in I mean, it just goes round and round and on a loop, you know. And I think that's just the most divine, raunchy. daft but sinister isn't it nice sugar and spice luring disco dollies to a life of vice.

I think it comes from a, a new tabloid headline was the [00:30:00] inspiration for it but it's, it's something about it that is just, just 

racing, you

know? 

Andy Gott: Marc Almond is well, it goes without saying that he's one of my dream guests for this very bloody podcast. would love to know what on earth was going on in those boys lives in, you know, the tail end of the 70s, which culminated in this 1981 album. it's incredibly cinematic in many ways, and it seems to have deeply inspired so many other artists. 

Fenton Bailey: I mean, I love the sort of rawness of the production on the one hand, the sense of you know, it's a tin pot drum machine, you know, it sort of owns that sort of feeling. I love the, I mean, people love his voice and the way it sort of people say, Oh, it's flat. I mean, I couldn't tell you if it's flat or not, but it seems to have a certain sort slide to it.

It's just slightly off in a way [00:31:00] that makes you pay attention, you know? And then it's sort of remarkable look of the sort of hairdo. I mean, it was just, it's just such an oddball collection of things. And of course, mean, you know, Tainted Love, what a, what a fabulous cover version.



Andy Gott: Almost one of those songs which is now so ubiquitous and so well known that it's kind of cliche to say, well, my favorite Soft Cell song is Tainted Love,but it's exceptional. 

Fenton Bailey: absolutely it is. my belief that, you know, nothing beats a good synthesizer riff, you when it goes ka plunk plunk, you know, it's just like, it's like so good. And, but then there's also real, like, you know, say hello, wave goodbye. It's just. It just makes me sort of weep every time I hear it.

[00:32:00] And, um, then there's another B track Memorabilia. Which was sort of a sort of ecstasy track, I guess. I mean, personally was never really into drugs and haven't really done drugs that much. But, there's something, there's something trance like about it that is really gorgeous in a way.

And I don't know what it is about it, but it always comes back to feeling a very homemade, raw album that also is incredibly sort of moving and and conjures up, lost love or failed love, but also conjures up, you know, damp, dingy Britain. It brings you that sort of Coronation Street depression thatknow, you just feel it, you know, sort of fog and drizzle and ooh,

Andy Gott: but creating your own against all odds, creating your own like sexiness and seediness 

[00:33:00] within all of that and it's kind of glamorous. 

Fenton Bailey: Unapologetic. It's a gritty glamour that is, I guess maybe that's what it is about it. It's like owning the queerness, but not trying to clean it up. Not being like, yeah, we're queer and we like sleazy 

things. We like strip bars and we like Soho and we like cross dressing and we like sex dwarves. Yes, exactly. I mean, and with a bit of a wink and a, You know, it's, it's, it's so funny. I never thought when I sat down to make this list for youfor this show that I would ever, this would ever be my choice, but there it is, 

Andy Gott: 

The artist that you selected who and why 

Fenton Bailey: Well, I, you know, I mean, this is terrible. It's like Sophie's Choice every time they'll be like, which And I think it has to be Bowie because, [00:34:00] and because, Me and my best friend, I think we're still to this day slightly mad at him that the whole that he was gay bisexual thing was sort of 

was, what is that, what is that word they say for queerbaiting? Yeah. But he obviously wasn't, and all is forgiven, but it wasn't me who turned me on to, it was my brother who,came home with a copy of Hunky Dory and he was like, 10 years older than me. And I was like, life on Mars is like, what is that song?

and from then on, I was like, whatever this person's going to do, I'm going to listen. And then of course, you know, Gene Genie and Ziggy Stardust and just what Drive In Saturday and these singles and they, and then and more sort of like, Well, you know, diamond Dogs and, [00:35:00] and Aladdin. I mean, look, oh my God.

Aladdin saying, had another moment with Mom. I'd asked for that that album for Christmas, and they gave it to me and opened up the gatefold and there was Bowie standing. They were all in silver without any sort of bits. And I put it on again, another classic moment in front of the whole family.

And time flexing like a whore, falls wanking to the floor, and I was like, oh my god, this is Christmas day, you know, with the aunts and the uncles



Andy Gott: I think we're already on the same page and I think a lot of people are with us, but you hinted to something there which has not tarnished his legacy in whatsoever any way, but somehow jars to our 2024 lens of this, whether we call it queerbaiting or not, you know, it's [00:36:00] very well documented in that He did perhaps lead people down the wrong path, but the complications for me are when he called himself gay or bisexual or whatever, he, took an enormous risk there, a personal risk in the time he was doing it.

and I can imagine record labels and marketing and PR could have been horrified with that choice, but it opened him You know, People who felt like the weirdos in their class or in society were suddenly able to look at this person as, okay, that's a bit of me there.

There's someone who I can look up to and he has my back in that way. Yes, perhaps disappointing that he didn't mean it and maybe it was a bit of a marketing thing. 

Fenton Bailey: Well, six things really, like oneis like, what's wrong with being fluid? You can like change your mind, you can like 

Andy Gott: Yes. 

Fenton Bailey: Like, who says your identity has to be fixed and unchanging? That, to me, is a fundamentally Puritan point of view. And that's the problem I have sometimes with the 2024 lens, is it's very[00:37:00] unforgiving and very unaccepting.

And it's like, you have to define yourself and adhere to that. And that, I'm sorry, that's just Puritanism. As opposed to allowing people to be who they are as they feel they are in that moment in time. And number two. He called it so right because it was a risk, but I think he was savvy enough to know it was exactly what people were gagging for.

And it was brilliantly delivered and brilliantly performed. in a way that others, I couldn't pull it off and didn't pull it off. I mean, let's face it, Elton John, national treasure, love him. Didn't come out until late in the eighties. So and he was a successful artist at the time. And number three related to that is yeah, pop is about buying stuff. You buy the records, youthe image, you buy the lifestyle, you buy the clothes, you buy the posters, the memorabilia. And so He knew it would sell and he was, he's an artist and

This was before, know, let's make lots of money.

This was [00:38:00] before, you know, opportunities in the pet shop wise, but that is what pop is. It's a commodity. And in no way does that shade its profundity. It's about selling ideas and, more power to him. I mean, while we're on this, look at Bowie's unfortunate flirtation with, fascism when he came to Victoria Station, you know, in the open top car 

with Nazi salute and all the rest of it, you

Andy Gott: the M White Duke thing or was that

Fenton Bailey: 

was around the thin white Duke and he, sort of apologized for it, didn't he, in China Girl, you know. I stumbled into town, visions of swastikas, plans for everyone, you know. It was, Yeah. I mean, he's an artist. It's like like trying on all these different things. and and that's why to me, he's [00:39:00] the, for me anyway, because he tried on multiple 

identities.

like drag. It's 

like, yeah. And, and it's so true of the times we live in and who we are. 



Andy Gott: of course, of course agree and sign off on all of that. I can't help but think about all those incredible images and drag personas that he put on and how influential they were on so many other people. 

Fenton Bailey: you know, he had such a profound impact and I mean, for a long time too. I mean, it wasn't just, you know, Aladdin Sane and Diamond Dogs. I mean I think an album that often gets overlooked is The Man Who Sold the World, actually. Which I love that

I mean, Ashes to Ashes, one of my favorite songs and that video with the Blitz kids amazing stuff. [00:40:00] Amazing. Amazing. 

Andy Gott: Fenton, we've come to the the part of the conversation where we're we're nearly wrapping up But I promised you that we do a bit of a quick fire round because you have selected some bangers that we need to discuss So when I call out the name of this track, I'd love you to tell me What it reminds you of time and place and why you picked it perhaps let's go.

Goodbye to love by the 

carpenters 

Fenton Bailey: the most romantic song ever and the most incredible guitar solo the end. I just just that voice and that guitar it's, it's the Uber loves, it's all love songs, you know, really.

Andy Gott: Just divine. 

Fenton Bailey: Yeah. 

Andy Gott: Hung up by Madonna. [00:41:00] 

Fenton Bailey: the impatience of Madonna. We've talked about them, but they, you know, what does it remind me of though? I, most Madonna songs remind me of Madonna. Probably as she intended.

Whereas I, so many of the other songs, I'm like, oh yes, I was here at this, 

moment and I was feeling all this and, and, and had this, but 

But weirdly, yeah. 

Andy Gott: Kiss me. 

Stephen Duffy. 

Fenton Bailey: Oh, oh my God. This I think is a song that's been overlooked and sort of missed. It is a classic. And I just don't know what happened to Stephen Tintin Duffy and why there weren't this was definitely in the limbo lounge, in the East Village. 82. I mean, I just remember it so clearly because it was, it was a song everyone was playing along with White Horse. He's so sexy.It feels very queer in a way that like, just, [00:42:00] you just want to make out with a guy. 

I 

do, anyway, when I hear that. 

Andy Gott: Sweet Dreams. Eurythmics. 

Fenton Bailey: Oh, what is it about that song? Like, 

Andy Gott: Oof. 

Fenton Bailey: it's the, again, it's this sort of relentlessly electronic feel. The beauty of her voice, but also her very androgynous presence. A sinister sort of feeling, a slightly sort of fascistic threat. And this sort of. This sort of slightly hollowed out, sweet dreams are made of this, who am I to disagree? You know, it's sort of knowing cliches. There's a, there's a real ache inside of that song that is, I guess, quite hard to describe, 



Andy Gott: to me, it's sort of, they're recorded a few years apart, but both Sweet Dreams and I [00:43:00] Feel Love by Donna Summer, to me, sound like the future still today. Both of those songs, when they're played at full volume, make me feel like they are from the future, but they were from decades ago, and they still retain that quality. 

Fenton Bailey: Absolutely. Yes. 

Andy Gott: Sweet Transvestite from Rocky 

Fenton Bailey: Wow. I mean, oh my God. Talk about a coming of age song. Like when

I snuck in to see the movie. I saw the movie before the stage show. I was, Not old enough to see it, but I was like, Oh my God, this is what I've been waiting for. And I didn't really know what a sweet transvestite was, but Tim Curry just I just wanted to wear fishnets.

He was so gorgeous and he had that marvelously posh voice [00:44:00] that sort of this sort of velvety, decadent, it was sort of Mick Jagger crossed with the Queen or something. It was, I, I, it's, it's so lush and insouciant and just so fucking sexy. the world that he built, that Frankenfurter built for himself was this sort of extraordinary. I think it pointed to the future, the idea that would play with our identities, we would play with ourselves, that we essentially all come from we're made out of stardust, and he constructs for himself this fabulous, exotic, fantastical world.

That is shut down by, you Puritan forces of repression.

Andy Gott: And I love that it still has this thriving audience to this day, and young 

people are still 



Fenton Bailey: 50 years next year, 50th anniversary. And, uh, you know just those lovely Oh, well, just satanic mechanic and don't be brought down by the way I look, you know, it's just like, it's really good. And that, and don't dream it, be it, [00:45:00] which I think is a you know, a life lesson or a mantra or

something, you know, 

Andy Gott: yeah. 

Fenton Bailey: be it. 

Andy Gott: I, I've gotta say, perhaps does Rocky Horror lend itself to a Drag Race UK Rusical theme, 

Fenton Bailey: Probably, I mean, it would be great, wouldn't it? 

Andy Gott: Okay, two more tracks. Winter in July, 

Bum the 

Fenton Bailey: Oh, good. I, this is, if, if Goodbye to Lovers, I I find it hard to even talk about this song without tearing up. I don't know, it just, my birthday's in July, so, And when the song came out and when I heard it, I actually had fallen head over heels with someone, in love with someone. and it was July, and it was, and it wasn't gonna work out, but then the song is [00:46:00] so, um, why is it that some people's stories go untold? You know, that, that, but, but not to you know, not to have a winter in July, you know, it's like, it's a beautiful message in in, in a very heartbreaking situational song, you know, I feel like the whole thing is incredibly sad, that song, but it also is sort of saying, don't give up, you know, but not in some sort of rabble rousing, pointless, optimistic way.

It's sort of like recognizing that like may well be fundamentally sad and that love may well be unrequited But that's no reason to,

Andy Gott: Not experience it. 

Fenton Bailey: yes, and not to experience 

life and 

yeah, persevere. 

Andy Gott: A beautiful track. When you, when you sent that through, many, yeah, I was just like, wow, that song [00:47:00] is, it's so chilly and it's, it's very 1991 to me in a very complimentary way. That's not an insult. It sounds like 1991 to my ears and I just think a 

brilliant track. 

Fenton Bailey: Young Offender, Pet Shop 

Andy Gott: Boys. 

Fenton Bailey: well. Oh, God! I mean, this actually, you know, you know, it's, it's obviously an older man. talking probably to a Um, Pet Shop Boys has written quite a few songs about

Rentboys. 

Andy Gott: They have!

Fenton Bailey: but it's so beautiful. It's like, you know, when he talks about his, his young lover is like playing a video game and how he's, he's, his fingers moves over the keys and the glow of the machine.

And, and then there's Neil Tennant saying, I haven't a clue, obviously, you know, it's like, it's, It's very lovely, but I just love the way it bops along. I love so much of their stuff. I mean, I [00:48:00] think on the one hand, I think they're ridiculous. On the other hand, you know, on the other hand, I think I'm jealous of them because people kept on saying we were like the Pet Shop Boys.

In fact, 

if we have time, I'll tell you a quick

Pet Shop Boys original album was produced and recorded by Bobby Orlando. Bobby,

well, I don't know what happened. They had some dispute or something and they went back to England, the Pet Shop Boys. They got a deal with EMI and they basically re recorded the whole thing. Meanwhile, Bobby O, who was this dynamic, he said he wasn't gay, but I just, the, the number of gay hits he turned out, I mean, he, he was amazing. But anyway, he's this producer guy and he called us up one day cause we were signed to Personal Records, which was a friend of his, and he said, Oh, I've got Um, Can you, Come and I'll give you a couple of hundred bucks, write some lyrics to it. We were in no position to say no. So we wrote some lyrics and we wrote this song called Runway Girl and we did like a couple of takes. It was all done. And that summer [00:49:00] I heard this song on the radio like West End Girls.

I was like, fuck, that's our song. Well, of course it actually wasn't our song. I think what Bobby had done is like he erased the vocals from. The original version changed the tempo, and we had this like, Ippity bippity song called Runway Girl. It's so uncannily like Western girls. I mean, our version of Runway Girl is like a sort of Western girls on speed, you know, like, or on poppers.

but it's just so funny that we, it was called Runway Girl. Yeah, 

Andy Gott: Which definitely hearkens to your future, but also, do I see another royalty check coming in your mail 

Fenton Bailey: I'm afraid I don't believe so. No, I don't think so. But [00:50:00] Bobby was incredibly smart. And perhaps that's why the patch always had the sense to get out of that deal. Because 

Bobby, I would give you, you know, money for lunch. And that was that was the end of your rights, you know? I mean, he was very cheery. And I don't know if he's still alive or dead.

Just a bundle of energy and a very savvy and very, very talented musician. 

yes.

Bobby 

O. Yeah. 

Andy Gott: okay, really love that exclusive tea for tracks of our queers. Your origin story of West End Girls. Okay, that is actually the 

end of 

Fenton Bailey: That's a good, yeah. Can't do better than that.

Right. 

Andy Gott: We're ending there. That was absolutely brilliant, Fenton. I like to ask my guests, do you have a social initiative or a charity that you'd like to give a shout out to?

I know at the end of every Drag Race episode, you know, you implore viewers to vote, but is there something else that 

springs to

mind, 

or 

Fenton Bailey: Oh, absolutely. We must vote. And, you know, I do believe that this election more than any other election, you know, vote like your life depends on it because it [00:51:00] just might, you know? But also we are very proud to support and launched an initiative with MTV and the ACLU called the Drag Defense Fund, which came about because of all these loony right wing attempts to ban drag Needless to say, most of those attempts have been unsuccessful. And needless to say, any attempt to turn the clock back will fail, but we have to fight it. And 

the drag defense fund has raised over 2 million to fight these laws by the people, the ACLU, who know how to fight them. Cause you've got to fight this stuff in the courts. So yeah.

Andy Gott: Fenton Bailey, you are queer and thank you very much for your 

tracks. 

Fenton Bailey: Thank you so much. You know, I get so funny. I feel so bad because you sent me the email and I totally forgot all about it. Man. When you nudged me about it, I was like, Oh my gosh, I was so excited to do it. And thank you so much for, 

Andy Gott: Yeah. 

Fenton Bailey: know. 

Andy Gott: [00:52:00] I had an hour with Fenton Bailey and I still couldn't squeeze in a question on all styles, one, which I do and ironically love, but we did cover back at Chip's. Almond van Helden random and so many incredible songs. So I'm taking what I get. 

If you are looking for more Fenton, I've linked to his Instagram account, the drag defense fund, and a few extra nuggets all in the show notes. 

One particular favor is the YouTube archive of Nelson Sullivan. He was a creative collaborator of Fenton and. And the late eighties, he followed that policy around New York and he sadly died in the late eighties suddenly, but he filmed almost every single move they made. 

It's an exquisite time capsule. You can't miss it. All the clips are on YouTube. Go take a look. If you're still with me tune in next week for an episode with someone I've idolized ever since [00:53:00] they made my jaw drop and a teenage DVD viewing of Madonna's truth or dare documentary. Gag.