Sarah Keyworth, comedian

Sarah Keyworth is an award-winning comedian from Nottingham, England, who you may know from Live at the Apollo, Mock the Week, 8 Out of 10 Cats, or their own BBC Sounds show, Am I a Boy or a Girl? 

Sarah just won the top prize at the Melbourne International Comedy Festival, and sat down with me to muse on some of the music that has soundtracked their queer journey, including (but not limited to) Katy Perry, MUNA, and Taylor Swift.

This is the final episode of Season 3. I'm taking a few months to rest and reset ahead of Season 4, but do enjoy any episodes you've missed in the mean time.

You can email me thoughts, recommendations, or gay ramblings to tracksofourqueers@gmail.com.

Listen to all previous guest choices in one handy Spotify playlist, Selections from Tracks of Our Queers and follow the pod on Instagram.

Transcript

Sarah Keyworth
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Andy Gott: [00:00:00] Hello. Welcome to Tracks of Our Queers. My name is Andy Gott and each episode I talk to a fascinating queer person about One song, one album and one artist that have each soundtrack, their life. This is the final episode of our third season.

And what a gay old time we've had. I'm going to take a break for a few months, have a rest, get some sun on my skin, read some books, et cetera. And track down some guests for season four. If you have a recommendation or think you might be the queer, I'm looking for send me an email at tracksofourqueers@gmail.com.

If this is your first time listening to the pod. Welcome. Over the last 12 episodes alone, exceptional guests like Sherry vine. Brontez Purnell Michael Cragg and the iconic DJ Paulette to name just a few have shared the soundtracks to that queer journeys with me. 

give them a binge if you've got the appetite, but for now let's chat this episode's guest. Hailing from Nottingham England. [00:01:00] Sarah Keyworth is an award winning comedian who you may know from live at the Apollo mock the week eight out of 10 cats or their own BBC sounds show, Am I a boy or a girl, a show exploring the very straightforward topic of gender in the 21st century. 

at time of recording, they actually just won the top award at the Melbourne international comedy festival. For that show. My eyes are up here. Uh, set, exploring the family's acceptance Of their nonbinary identity. 

Sarah was a dream to chat to. And as you'll soon, hear. they absolutely nailed the Tracks of Our Queers brief. 

No begging for donations this episode, even I'm sick of hearing myself give that spiel, but as ever, if you want to the links in the show notes, Over to Sarah. 

Sarah Keyworth. Welcome to Tracks of Our Queers.

Sarah Keyworth: Hello, thank you for having me. I took a sip at the worst possible time there,

Andy Gott: Starting with a big gulp. thank [00:02:00] you for being here. You're a fellow Midlander Down Under. It's great to have more representation in the Southern Hemisphere. tell me what are you here for and how long you're here for.

Sarah Keyworth: I'm currently in Melbourne. I'm here for the Melbourne Comedy Festival, and I will be going to Sydney next week for the Sydney Comedy Festival, and then I leave. So, basically the whole of April I will be here. 

Andy Gott: it's not your first time in Australia, is it?

Sarah Keyworth: No, I came in 2019, just to Melbourne. Didn't go anywhere else.

Andy Gott: Okay, what are your general perceptions, vibes of Australian comedy versus the UK?

Sarah Keyworth: I think the amazing thing about Australian comedy is that audiences are really, excited about, weirdness in a way that the UK, the UK can be a bit like, hold on a minute, what's going on here? But Australians love, they embrace the weird, which I, I admire.

Andy Gott: Well, props to Australia, that's great to know.

Sarah Keyworth: well done Australia.

Andy Gott: what is your earliest musical memory?

Sarah Keyworth: [00:03:00] I've got memories, very nostalgic memories of my parents playing. We still listen to this album now when my brother and I have a meal with my parents at their home. They'll play, a band called Del Ametri, which is a Scottish band. And there's a particular album, you know, when you know an album so well that it feels like the start of one song is part of the end of another.

Andy Gott: I know exactly that feeling, yep.

Sarah Keyworth: Where like a song ends, but your brain naturally goes and the next bit is the start of the next one. And this particular album, I think it's, I think it's a Best of Del Ametri album. It's like a, it's, I think it's called Hat Full of Rain or something like that. And that is very early memories of, my parents would have people over for dinner and they'd put that. And so I've got memories of being sort of in my pyjamas, ready to go for bed, but kind of excited by [00:04:00] this prospect of adults coming over, and it feels a bit like it's not a normal evening, and

Andy Gott: Oh my gosh, I know it.

Sarah Keyworth: up a bit later. Yeah, that feeling of like this, there's an event going on, people are coming over, it's quite exciting, and yeah, the sort of smell of my mum's perfume and stuff like that, and, yeah.

Kind of, yeah, really nostalgic of that. That music really takes me back to that time.

Andy Gott: You're ringing bells with me here. I've got a friend who really, incredibly articulates the feeling of. It's like adjacent to yours in that you're in bed, you can hear the chitchat downstairs, and obviously there's music playing, but there's a sensation that, There's a bit of FOMO almost like you want to be involved in what's going downstairs, but you also know it's not your thing This is a very adult thing happening.

So you're best staying in bed. Yeah

Sarah Keyworth: Yeah, I remember sitting on the stairs of my parents house in my pyjamas, waiting to answer the door, because I loved answering the door to people. I'm waiting for the doorbell to ring so that I [00:05:00] can answer it for them. And the music's on and they're waiting for people to arrive.

Yeah, really visceral memories of that music. 

Now, when you were discovering music yourself, let's say maybe in your teens, maybe earlier, what were your ears pricking up to?

As a child, I've always loved, I've been a sucker for pop my whole life. Loved pop music. So I loved S Club 7, big S Club 7 they were my favorite band when I was small. and I think I just liked the happiness of it. Enjoyed the vibes, when I was a teenager. I got more into kind of, like, pop punk and stuff like that.

I went to see The Darkness twice. And I'm seeing them again, seeing them this year. Very excited about it. Big fan of The Darkness.

Andy Gott: Okay, and very, very brave of you to admit that on a public forum. No, I'm, I'm thrilled. That's great.

Sarah Keyworth: I'm not ashamed at all. I love The Darkness. I think They're very talented. And their songs are fun. It's a good time.

Andy Gott: [00:06:00] They are fun.

Sarah Keyworth: no shame there.

Andy Gott: No shame, especially on this podcast. 

Sarah Keyworth: the Scissor Sisters as well. I saw them twice. Supported by the gossip.

Do you remember the gossip?

Andy Gott: know exactly the tour you are referencing.

Sarah Keyworth: Beth Ditto looked incredible. Green latex dress, jumping up and down, singing, standing in the way of control. You think, that's, that probably made me gay, I think.

Andy Gott: it's, um, sounding formative. Yes.

Sarah Keyworth: Yeah, certainly.

Andy Gott: I could ask you a million questions about comedy, but it's not the topic of this podcast. However, one that I'm always keen to understand from a comedian's perspective is, To me there's a real power in holding a room in the palm of your hands and [00:07:00] being able to circumvent, navigate anything from a joke not landing the way you wanted it to, an audience simply not vibing with you and not, you know, those kind of situations that comedians I'm sure have gone through.

To me, make me break out in a cold sweat. What is your, technique of navigating an audience who isn't going the way you want them to?

Sarah Keyworth: Oh, I wish I had more fun things to say. I think it's just, it's time, experience. Like, it was harder when I first started and things wouldn't go well and I wouldn't know how to cope with it and stuff, whereas now, I have a degree of confidence that I can find my way back to the original plan if I go off piste and kind of just try and work it out a little bit.

And then also the confidence of knowing that, sometimes it's just not your crowd, it's just not your room, it just doesn't work, and you've just got to get through it and go, Thanks very much, that's me, [00:08:00] we're never going to see each other again, because you're never coming back, and get out of there.

But, yeah, I think it's, just, it's, I've been doing comedy for ten years now, so I think it's that kind of point where you go, there's not many things that haven't happened.

Andy Gott: Yeah

Sarah Keyworth: So you get to the point where you go, yeah, I've been through these things before. It never gets any easier when you're just dying like a real pure death on stage.

So there's no way out of that. You go on stage, you do in 20 minutes, you look at your watch when you think it's nearly over and you've done seven and you think, I can't believe it. I can't believe I've got to be here for, for this long, but it's just about kind of faking it really, pretending it's going all right even, and then, and then getting, ducking out of there as quickly as possible.

Andy Gott: I'm going

Sarah Keyworth: Fortunately, doesn't happen too often. Touch wood. 

Andy Gott: Touch wood. Okay, 

and I've got to say I am a BBC sound Stan It keeps me connected to UK

culture

from Australia and I'm thrilled to be speaking to the creator of one of my own favorite audio programs on the [00:09:00] platform. So if you haven't listened to it, Are You a Boy or a Girl is a beautiful show exploring your own personal journey with gender fluidity and gender more broadly in the 21st century.

have you learned anything new or changed your view on anything gender related as a result of your explorations in the 

Sarah Keyworth: I think it's really interesting because there's two series of that show. The first one came out in 2020 and the second one came out, just at the end of last year. And what I find really interesting as a sort of, time capsule of cultural attitudes is that when I wrote the show in 2019, first series came out summer of 2020, I felt as though the stuff I was saying was a little bit like preaching to the converted, like, you know, the conversation about, Queerness and, the LGBT community was pretty progressive and pretty, liberal.

And then, writing this series to record last year, the landscape has completely changed. It's now a debate. It's now a, [00:10:00] a big controversial topic. There's a lot of, Intense emotions connected to it. So I found it really challenging. And, kind of had to steal myself slightly to write that second series in the way that we did it because, it, it's, it was, it was hard and weak.

I, I was tempted to play it quite safe. And then I just thought, what's the fucking point? Sorry, can I swear? Is that

Andy Gott: Yeah, absolutely. Go ahead.

Sarah Keyworth: I just thought, I've gotta, I've got this opportunity and this platform to, do something worthwhile and have a say. So I've gotta kind of use it to the best of my ability. So it took a bit of, bravery, I suppose, in the sense that I really didn't wanna ruffle too many feathers, but I just thought, you know what, these feathers probably deserve ruffling.

And, try to be clear in the points about gender and, our existence and clear up all of those myths and confusions and address a lot of those quite horrible things that are being said and claimed [00:11:00] about. genderqueer people. I suppose in terms of what I learned about myself, I've learned that, I am capable of writing a funny show about a difficult thing. and it won an award. I'm really proud of that. It won, it just recently won an award, which was amazing, and I didn't think that they'd give it to us because it is difficult. Some of the stuff we say I thought was going to really get some people riled up. So, yeah, but I'm really proud of it.

I'm proud that we did it like that in the end.

Andy Gott: As you should be, and congratulations on the award, I did see that. I think that was only a month or so ago, wasn't it?

Sarah Keyworth: Yeah, yeah, it was just before I came here, which is, it's really cool.

Andy Gott: and I, there's certain things that I am incredibly clear on in that, identity is not up for debate. but, I firmly believe that the only way we're going to change those minds and get people to understand, you know, basic, human commonalities is by having conversations.

But conversations can be exhausting and incredibly, overbearing for people who are just trying [00:12:00] to live their lives. Like, no one should be out there educating people about who they are. but I just don't see another way out of this incredibly divisive era that we find ourselves in other than having conversations, despite that being a burden for the person who has to hold and facilitate them.

Sarah Keyworth: Yeah, my biggest thing with anything that I write when it's comedy, is that I try my best To humanize myself, to make people laugh, and to deliver information that is not at all in a way that is saying if you don't know this or you don't agree with this or you don't understand this, you're an idiot. I never would approach it with a tone of going, if this is confusing or overwhelming to you, Then you're just a dinosaur and you're ridiculous. Then there's no point. So I kind of try to approach it with the attitude of like, I appreciate that this is, new, and this is big, and however many years, hundreds and thousands of years, that we've had this cultural understanding.

Of what these [00:13:00] human beings can be categorized in. I can appreciate that. And it's safe. That feels so safe. I think when it fits you, it must be so relaxing. I can't imagine how relaxing it must be to be a man, a man who knows that he's a man and fits the bill of being a man in every possible way.

Like how comfy that must feel. Like, like what a great, What a great experience that must be. To be, yeah, just a straight, like the bog standard straight white man. nobody ever has questioned that you, like you're, you're not what you're meant to be. I can, I can appreciate that when somebody says, Rather, you know, there's way more nuance to, to you and to other people and all the people around you that's probably quite frightening.

And,I can appreciate that. I think unless you are in the mind of a person who doesn't fit, then it must, yeah. there's a degree of. Difficulty, especially if, you know, if you're older and you've lived your whole life with one set of rules I'm sure I'll get to an age where something will [00:14:00] be said to me and I'll go hold on What are you talking about?

Where's that come from? So I do try and, and talk to those people as much as I can and say you're not wrong for finding this difficult Frightening or confusing, but I'll just tell you my story.

Andy Gott: And that's all you can. Yeah, I think you've hit the nail on the head there. however, I did find your, practical explanation of what being non binary means to you very helpful. mind just briefly sharing?

Sarah Keyworth: Is that the titanic joke Is that yeah Yeah, that's it's a silly joke about I think because that's that's the kind of exactly the sort of thing I try and do where you know I stand on a stage in a club in the uk and say I identify as non binary You can see people a little bit kind of going away.

We fucking go And so, to come out, and that joke is, when I'm trying to explain what being non binary is, I say, I think it means, if I were on the Titanic, I think I would be allowed on the lifeboat, but I do believe I would be expected to row. and I like stuff like that [00:15:00] because it just immediately sets the tone of like, I'm not taking it seriously, I'm not here to start lecturing you I'm just Gonna make some silly jokes.

Andy Gott: It's, it's that and it's a way in and it's connecting with people, but Honestly, that is my lived queer experience. I, like that, it's very real to me. It's like strong arms, soft hands, I think you say as well, 

Sarah Keyworth: Yeah,

Andy Gott: felt very seen by that and it was lovely to hear a Titanic joke not about the floating door, so keeping it

Sarah Keyworth: Absolutely. Exactly, A fresh new take on the Titanic story. 

Andy Gott: Wonderful. Wow, we've got a lot to talk about with your music, so we're going to dive in. First of all, and I'm very keen to hear your honest answer either way, this podcast is all about the relationship that queer people have with music, but music is a universal, loved and adored part of humanity.

Do you think that your, um, Love, for music is enhanced or impacted by your queerness or is music just something [00:16:00] that you simply love like any human would? But

Sarah Keyworth: Um, ooh, that's a good question. I was having a big debate with my friends the other day, because, I was saying to them that I firmly believe that my life would be completely different if I wasn't queer. And they were saying, no, but you'd still be you.

You'd still be who you are. So it wouldn't be that different. And I say, no, if I were, as so much of my life, so much of my childhood, was this sort of alien experience of just not feeling like I fit, specifically with my gender, I think, maybe more than queerness, but obviously it kind of all feeds into the same thing.

But, I think if I'd fit in, if I'd been a girl who fit in at school, I'd have been a lot happier, more relaxed. That would have changed my experience of primary school, would have changed my experience of secondary school. I maybe wouldn't have needed to feel validation from jokes or performance or something like that.

I probably wouldn't have ended up doing stand up comedy, you know, and there was elements [00:17:00] of trying to get out there and meet more people because I, there was no barrier. for opportunities to date or meet people or anything like that so maybe I just had a boyfriend and kind of just settled down in Nottingham and I think my whole trajectory is is this So, yeah, I think that, I think I'm a bit of a, like a sort of romantic sort.

Like I get very taken in by love stories and things like that. So I think, yeah, my experience listening to music is very informed by my queer identity because I, Imagine the stories behind the music and who the songs are about and who they maybe are about in my life or what they connect to in my life and that connects to relationships or crushes or stuff like that.

So, yeah, I think so. 

Andy Gott: that's a great segue into the track you picked. So, Sarah, which track did you pick and why?

Sarah Keyworth: I chose for my first song, I Kissed a Girl by Katy Perry. And the reason I chose [00:18:00] this song is because I hate it with a fiery passion. I wondered whether you'd be surprised it was my chosen song. But I read the brief of this podcast of like, songs that have informed or, been sort of soundtracks to your queer existence.

And I was thinking about a song that maybe was around when I was a teenager. I think that I Kissed a Girl came out when I was maybe about 15. Something like that. Like, secondary school age, high school age. And, I had a girlfriend, but it was a secret, nobody knew. And then we had been sort of weirdly outed at school by this guy.

But it was one of those sort of confusing things where people didn't know whether he was making it up or whether it was true, so it wasn't like a full thing, but I remember this song coming [00:19:00] out. and being in a PE lesson and they were playing like chart music for some reason, and this song coming on and all of the girls in my PE class looking at me and just thinking like, fuck off, like this, what are the chances that this would be happening and this song would have come out?

And I just hate it. I hate it so much. It just always takes me back to that time of feeling so vulnerable. And it's so stupid that a pop song like that could have made me feel that way. But it was such a badly timed song release in my life. 

Andy Gott: I'm so sorry, Sarah. Well, first of all, thank you so much for reading the brief and my first ever guest on this podcast to 

bring a 

Sarah Keyworth: Pick a song that they absolutely hate.

Andy Gott: but it fits [00:20:00] the brief and I felt, I felt a bit sick when you depicted that scene. That scene was fully realized in my mind. And, I've got a whole heap of questions and, and points that have come into my brain the last couple of days of, as I've been listening to it.

I, I think we're maybe a very similar age and, and I go back to that exact time too, and I remember thinking, wow, this is maybe good because it's making, this is a very mainstream brand new pop star, very femme, girly, girly presenting, singing about kissing a girl. Okay, so that's cool, isn't it? That's gotta be cool.

But then there was also still at that time something niggling me, thinking, but if she's not Gay or bi or remotely queer in any way that sits not right with me and even as like a 16, 17 year old and maybe not being able to articulate that feeling very well, I actually remember sitting in the back of a friend's car as we were driving and they were playing it and I was [00:21:00] thinking this sounds great because it's like a gay thing in the charts but then there was this other half of me where it was like but if she's not gay that makes me feel a bit ick 

and now I can articulate those feelings a bit better but It's a complicated song, especially for you, but I feel like it sits in the pop pantheon as definitely in Katy Perry's, um, output as a bit of a tricky one.

Sarah Keyworth: Yeah, I think so. I remember, I feel like there have been moments in my life where I've seen, big queer displays of, openness and joy and happiness in the public eye and thought, that is, that's significant and that's a big shift and that's great. And this didn't feel like that.

This felt like this was so within the male gaze.

Andy Gott: Yes.

Sarah Keyworth: what girls kissing is meant to be like and the sort of lyrics being like, I hope my boyfriend doesn't mind. And like, it was like, it was a song that was sort of teasing. It was like, this is wrong. You know, this is like, I've [00:22:00] done it and I liked it. I mean, the lyrics are literally it felt, it felt so wrong.

It felt so right. And singing about something like that, feeling wrong, is so unhelpful. Like, even though she says, right after that, it felt so right. it's like, the whole concept of that song is not like, I kissed a girl and I'm proud of it, and I love her, and I like her. It's, I did something a bit freaky,

you know.

I did something really crazy, and, And, do you know what? I'm gonna go mad and say that I liked it. Like, in addition, and I just, I just remember thinking that this is not helping. This is not, this is not making this feel any better. It's adding to that sort of fetishization of women kissing. And I remember, I think at the time, there was a video of Katy Perry and somebody else in a nightclub, I think, kissing and singing this song to Russell Brand, who's obviously a piece of shit, piece of

shit. 

Andy Gott: god.

Sarah Keyworth: But they're like dancing and singing along to it [00:23:00] and he's there. And, and again, obviously loads of news about Russell Brand at the moment was really, really fucking grim. What a piece of shit. But also, At the time we didn't know any of that, so there was this video online that existed where it was like proof that Katy Perry was sort of doing it performatively for this man in her life.

And yeah, I just really remember that not being like a positive representation thing. It being like a, it wasn't, it wasn't doing us any good.

Andy Gott: No. It felt so wrong, but it didn't feel right to us.

Sarah Keyworth: Yeah, 

Andy Gott: Well, there you have it. Okay, I'd 

be intrigued to find out Katy Perry's views on this song 15 years down the track. was another song on that album called You're So Gay, which the lyrics are abysmal.

It's basically like you wear, like factor [00:24:00] 50 sunscreen. As a pale person in Australia, I feel quite attacked by that lyric, especially now. 

Sarah Keyworth: You're

so gay and you don't even like boys. I remember that. You're so gay. And it was basically about how this guy Basically, it was just that she didn't like him.



Andy Gott: And a bit effeminate, a bit, metrosexual or whatever. Look, we're not cancelling you, Katie, but we'd love to have a conversation. So shoot me an email and

Sarah Keyworth: It would be worth just, what was going on at that time.

I didn't know, I hadn't realised I was coming in with such negative energy, but I just, I remember that really clearly as being a formative. I think because I was trying so hard to stay in the closet. I don't really feel like, I mean, we'll talk about it later on when I talk about my, the artist, but I didn't feel like I was really connecting with queer culture very much when I was a teenager.

that [00:25:00] was, that's a sort of, yeah, a real formative moment of going, you know, the opposite of what you should feel about music at that age, where you're going, this is not serving me well at all. Ahhhh.

Andy Gott: you picked and why.

Sarah Keyworth: Oh, I've chosen a relatively new album in comparison to the Katy Perry song. an album called MUNA by the band MUNA.

which I don't think this album came out in 2022, maybe 2023. and I first discovered MUNA on the Ellen DeGeneres show the same year. pre Ellen cancellation, really dropping the cancelled names out now. 

Andy Gott: is incredibly lesbian though, this, uh, this,

Sarah Keyworth: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Big, big queer energy. I love country music, which I'm gonna probably end up talking about a fair bit. I absolutely love it. I can't explain why. I've got no idea what I connect to in country music. I don't own a truck. I'm not a cowboy. I [00:26:00] rarely drink whiskey. My mama does not have a front porch.

I've got no idea what part of it that I, but I love. I think, is the storytelling. Taking you on a journey in a song. and so these guys are a little bit country, mostly poppy, like pop poppy, kind of dancy. and they sang a song called Anything but me on Ellen.

It's such a great performance. I thoroughly recommend that their performance on it. it's got like a Shania Twain energy to it. they're wearing complimentary outfits. It's all got purple in it. They're doing soft choreo. So it's not like full dance move, but it's just little steps together.

it's got a real Shania energy to it that I just loved. 

Andy Gott: Listeners, Sarah was just doing a bit of soft

Sarah Keyworth: yeah, doing little soft choreo. Yeah, just a little bit of movement and, they're [00:27:00] really visibly queer as well, like, and, that song they sang has one of my favourite opening lyrics of all time, which is, You're gonna say that I'm on my high horse.

I think that my horse is regular sized. Which I just think's a really funny lyric. Just think it's a really great way to start a song. yeah. That album is amazing. So then that album came out a couple of months after that, I think. And then, my girlfriend and I went to Glastonbury and we listened to the album on the way to Glastonbury.

Andy Gott: What year was this? 

Sarah Keyworth: 22, 22, yeah. and then We went to see them at the Roundhouse in Camden, which is, like 500, maybe, no. Somewhere between 500 and 1000 seats. It's not a big venue in terms of, yeah, intimacy.

It was a great space to see them. And they're never, going to be playing [00:28:00] in small rooms like that anymore. and it was just so great. And they call their shows Gay Church. And the atmosphere was just so lovely and warm and great. Gay and the songs are amazing. They've got this song called. I know a place which yeah Yeah, which became a bit of an anthem when that the shooting happened in America the Pulse shooting That became a bit of an anthem that was listened to a lot because it's about safe spaces and queer spaces and the sort of thing is, you know, I know somewhere that we can go and It was just amazing.

It was just such a great gig. It just fit the, like, the atmosphere they create. My favourite thing that happened was they played anything but me and they brought out an inflatable horse that they like passed, they [00:29:00] threw into the audience. Normally you go to a gig like that, and also, like, this room is just full of feral lesbians, I cannot explain. And I think, like, normally, you throw something, somebody throws something out into the crowd, that's gone, isn't it? Like, either it's been popped, or it's been nicked. they play the entirety of Anything But Me, this horse is being chucked about. They finish the song, the crowd gives the horse back.

And I thought it was so funny. I was like, that's queer culture in a nutshell, isn't it? We've had a lovely time with your horse. Here you go. 

Andy Gott: yes, yes. We've wiped it down for you. it's, been, it's, we've had some antibacterial wipes on it. Yes.

Sarah Keyworth: been in every lesbian's mouth, but we're giving it back now.

Andy Gott: thank you for picking this album. I love when people bring something more recent. It's tough for me to come up with a view on something, which I don't have, you know, a few years of hindsight to look at. But what I do know and what I love about Muna is. I'm so happy they're around. I'm so happy that we've got a band of three queer women who espouse [00:30:00] queer joy.

Not all women. and It's joyous. The synths, there's a big country influence like you've called out. They kind of do a bit of everything. 

Sarah Keyworth: a bit of 

Andy Gott: to umbrella and to pop but it's just joy and this album in particular sounds like a band who have really hit their stride. 

Sarah Keyworth: I think so.

Andy Gott: But they're kind of riding a wave of, yes increased popularity but the quality's through the roof and, it's a 

Sarah Keyworth: It's just, it's just great music, yeah. There's a video of them doing I Know A Place, I don't know, it's a few years ago now, so it's pre the Mooner album coming out, because I know a place that's a bit older, and in the video Katie, the lead singer, has her head shaved mostly at the back and it's kind of long at the front.

But it's one of the most powerful, live performances I've watched as a, on a YouTube video, and there's a verse, it was when Trump was president, there's a, there's a bridge that they've now, they changed, but when he was president they were doing it specifically about him. [00:31:00] I just, I just think they're fucking great.

I just think it's so good. Sometimes I, if I'm a bit drunk, I'll just watch that.

Andy Gott: Yeah, one of those

YouTube sit around watching that. 

it's

also just, All Killer No Filler. It's a no skip album. So props to 

Sarah Keyworth: It's, yeah, really good stuff. And just saying like, you know, it's happening more and more now, but like listening to an album with people singing she, her in songs, like not being afraid to, to sing about like queer love. it's nice that we are, you know, you listen to queer artists from days gone by and you can hear them, you can hear that they've closeted and they're singing about, about, you know, George Michael singing about women and things like that. And you think

Andy Gott: exactly. Yeah,

Sarah Keyworth: it's so lovely that that's not necessary anymore.

Andy Gott: And something that perhaps, [00:32:00] foolishly I take a little bit for granted now, but like you just said, it really wasn't that long ago when that was a big no no, and, 

Sarah Keyworth: yeah, I mean, I say it's not necessary anymore. I'm sure that there are probably still closeted musicians who are being Vastly encouraged not to come out.

Cough, Harry Styles. Cough, Harry Styles.

No, I don't know. I don't know I don't know that for sure. I don't know. That's allegedly. That's me. That's me.

That was a jokey joke.

Andy Gott: Yes, there's an old Cyndi Lauper song which is a cover of a Prince track called When You Were Mine and the Prince track sings to a girl, a woman who's left him for another man, but Cyndi Lauper, this is in 1983, didn't change the pronouns, so it was suggested that she was singing to her male lover who'd left her for another man. So, there's, I love these little [00:33:00] flecks throughout history where people have kind of pushed the boat out a little bit and have given a wink wink,

Sarah Keyworth: Because the alternative is you get fucking Michael Buble singing, singing fucking, instead of singing Santa Baby, he's singing Santa Buddy, and you think, aw, just be a bit gay Michael. Just fucking do it. What are you so afraid of? You can call Santa Baby, it's gonna, like, nobody's gonna, nobody's gonna call you gay.

really makes me laugh. 

Andy Gott: about Santa they 

Sarah Keyworth: Santa they be. That'd be lovely. And he changed the lyrics so that it's like, he's getting like a watch rather than a ring.

Something like that. They, they proper, like, butchered it up for him because he couldn't possibly sing about getting a diamond ring or

Andy Gott: Enough about Michael Bublé on this conversation, because you've just given us a lovely palette cleanser after 

Sarah Keyworth: Yeah, sorry. Yeah, yeah. Let's not get into, get back into Buble territory.

Andy Gott: And, we've set the scene very nicely for your artist. So, It's a big one but you picked [00:34:00] them. 

Sarah Keyworth: Let's see whether or not

you've heard of a diamond ring.

Andy Gott: Who and why?

Sarah Keyworth: I've chosen Taylor Allison Swift. I wasn't going to, I didn't want to, okay? But I didn't want to do it, but I've done it. I've done it because it's the honest truth. Taylor Swift was the soundtrack of my teenage years. And, as I say, love country music. I've just always loved it. I love a banjo. Sucker for a banjo.

And so her earlier albums, Like her debut album, it's called Taylor Swift and then Fearless in particular, the Fearless album and the Speak Now album. Just had some, Fearless, Fearless more than anything else I think, had some songs on it that were so, important to me as a teenager and the things I was going through.

And so in terms of a queer narrative, they were queer songs in my head. They were about my life and my relationships and what I was going through. And I think, It's very easy and very popular opinion [00:35:00] to slag off Taylor Swift these days, but she has a very unique and very special ability and people don't realize that she is an incredible lyricist and she's an incredible storyteller and that she can and does tap into very specific human emotions, 

But yeah, she, I think, I was really hesitant to say Taylor Swift, but I was like, is this, it's the only honest answer

actually about like, 

Andy Gott: Why were you hesitant?

Sarah Keyworth: because I just think, I just figured somebody else must have said it before, right? Somebody else must have, it's, she's, she's the, she's biggest artist in the world now, right?

Whereas I, I just, I just always thought that she was so brilliant at capturing. a pain or an anguish or a heartbreak so accurately in a three minute song. It's not easy to do. And I talk about this. Basically, I made a decision earlier on in the year that if anybody says to me, Oh, I hate Taylor Swift, I'm going to quiz them.

I'm going to sort of ask them why. That's what I decided. Because if [00:36:00] the answer is, Oh, I just don't like what I've heard on the radio. Well, then they actually just don't have an understanding of, oh god, what a fucking wanker I am. But like, she's just a really brilliant lyricist.

she's so good. 

And, only a brilliant lyricist, I'd argue that she's a phenomenal, multi, kind of talented performer in that, yes, she's written the songs but she's also the producer often. She, then manages to perform them on global stadium tours with three and a half hour shows, the stamina of an athlete, and playing multiple instruments.

Andy Gott: And people sometimes say this as a dirty phrase and I don't think it is at all. She's a phenomenal business person 

Sarah Keyworth: I was gonna say, she's a businesswoman. She's got, a great mind in terms of, trajectory, her plan,

Andy Gott: And there's very few people who can 

Sarah Keyworth: it. 

Andy Gott: of that. 

And I think people think, maybe people think that's dirty because it takes away from like the purity or like the authenticity of the songwriting and, but [00:37:00] I say no, I say why not have it all? 

something to be celebrated. 

can tap into those human feelings that you articulated and speak to teenagers, speak now. 

Sarah Keyworth: it's hard for me to understand, you know, people say, Oh, she's overrated. I'm like, can you name anybody else who's actually without talent, who's, as loved as she is? If in reality, if it's true what people say, where they go, Oh, she's just not very talented.

how is that possible? How is she connecting with all of these people in the world?

I think she's got a song called Cruel Summer, which is a more recent song. So it's more of a pop song. Very, very successful, very famous song. G Flip did a cover of it. And I was listening to that and I was like, when that song first came out, when, when Taylor Swift released it, I found it so compelling as also because I'm very, very, [00:38:00] happy and willing to invest in the, the Gaylor conspiracy theories, whether you like 

it or 

Andy Gott: my list of questions. 

Sarah Keyworth: I'm pretty confident it's not true. I'm not about spreading rumors, but I do think it's good fun. and I think at the time I was, I was like, this feels, this song has a real gay energy to it because it's all about secret love. It's all about this is doomed, 

And then when G Flip did that cover of it, and changed the pronouns. it is, it's such a queer anguish song. It's such a desperation of, like, we've all had those summer relationships where you go, this is doomed. 

And it's, it's a bad idea and I dunno why we're doing it. 

Andy Gott: you're not the first person to discuss G Flip's cover of Cruel Summer on this podcast and I don't think you'll be the last. The Gayler Conspiracy, it deserves its own podcast, but could you give us like a TLDR summary of The Gayler Conspiracy? Because I'm less fascinated about the nuances of the conspiracy but why the conspiracy happened.

Sarah Keyworth: I think, it's really [00:39:00] tricky, isn't it? she's had a lot of, relationships that have burned bright and then ended pretty swiftly. Swiftly? 

And, she's had like one or two intense friendships with women that have, that have ended with them not speaking to each other anymore.

Just kind of suddenly ended. And, I mean, you go online, there's so much actual detailed explanation as to why people think that she was in a relationship with Diana Rockwell or Karlie Kloss and stuff like that. I don't know. Who's to say? Because also, like, she's so famous. She lives in a world where presumably she does have to just kind of, cut people out if they compromise her safety or her privacy or anything like that.

You know, there's, it must be, there's probably dynamics to relationships that we can't understand, and it might be that this person isn't respecting this boundary that I have about this thing, so I need to just distance myself, or, this person's going to marry one of the Trump in laws, so I probably shouldn't be hanging around with her anymore.

I just think it's good fun. I just think it's a good fun rumour.

Andy Gott: It is good fun [00:40:00] andI've just been fascinated seeing it unfold in that there's been fandom for artists since time immemorial. Maybe you could say it began day dot with like the Beatles, with people losing their minds for these artists who they idolize. But there's something about the times that we're living in now with access to the internet and forming communities online with people on various social media networks and going back to forums and everything where these conspiracies can quickly take hold and people can become Deeply obsessed with them because they're building community through a shared obsession.

Andthink that's great because that's, that's the core of fandom. Where it becomes slightly unhinged for me is where it's really being quite invasive of someone's personal private life. 

but I love that the Gayler conspiracy exists. I love that people can absolutely Lose their minds and capabilities from like hidden [00:41:00] liner notes in albums and lyrics. I love it. So bring it

Sarah Keyworth: But I think, I think the problem is as well is that that's some of the, you know, like, some of the ways that she behaves, how petty she is, is some of the gayest shit I've ever

seen in my life, right? Like, 

like it, the pettiness has a queer energy that I respect, and, and it might just be that, you know, she's, you know, She's a lovely ally, and that's absolutely fine.

It's absolutely nobody's business in reality. But there's a lot of gay energy going on in the way that she behaves. And I respect it, and I'm here for it.

Andy Gott: Okay, well, props to Taylor.

Sarah Keyworth: But largely, my main feeling is that I just really love her music. It makes me feel, and I love feeling things.

Andy Gott: Well, let's bring it back to the music. So, I would love to know, can you do me, putting you on the spot, can you give me top five your personal Taylor tracks ever?

Sarah Keyworth: It changes, it changes day to day. you ask me this today, this would be different tomorrow. But, it's so hard. Okay, I'm just gonna, I'm gonna shoot out [00:42:00] what I, what I'm thinking about right now. Champagne Problems. What a song. That's, that's a heartbreak.

That's a perfect country song. I know it's not proper country, but it's so, the narrative of that song is completely heartbreaking. But that's a miserable song. I love the song Better, man. No idea why I connect with that in any way. It's country. It is got, it's got a country feel to it. 

Where do we go from here? It's so hard to know. Go, I'd say Cruel Summers, I think. Cruel Summer is probably, If I'm being honest, it's gotta be up there. [00:43:00] 

Andy Gott: Let's manifest a future Taylor G Flip duet. 

Sarah Keyworth: That'd be good for me. I'm gonna put Tis the Damn Season in there, but that's for personal reasons, because my girlfriend and I got together at Christmas time, so that has like a personal feel to it.

Andy Gott: I love that.

Sarah Keyworth: And then, I love the song Tell Me Why. It starts with a real, I think it's got a bit of a banjo vibe.

Very country at the start. And see, I'm going to, I'm going to walk away from this and then realize that I've missed out some very important songs. 

Andy Gott: It's just the name of the game, Sarah. 

Sarah Keyworth: I don't know. I don't know what, I don't know what my fifth one is. Don't make me choose another one.

Andy Gott: Okay, 

Sarah Keyworth: Don't make me do it.

Andy Gott: we'll circle back to Sarah in the future. 

Sarah Keyworth: You should check in with me once a year and find out my favorite Taylor Swift songs.

Andy Gott: Noted, will do. do you have a charity or [00:44:00] social initiative that you'd like to give a brief shout out to? 

Sarah Keyworth: there's a brand called Refuse to Conform that makes, clothing for, um, yeah, like, uh, What am I trying to say? For all bodies in different ways.

So it wears, you can get, jeans that aren't so hippie for those of us that have hips

and t shirts. Non gendered jeans, that's what we're talking about, and t shirts and stuff that, but it's just a really cool ethos. 

Andy Gott: in Australia, you can purchase tickets to My Eyes Are Up Here. 

Sarah Keyworth: I'll be in Sydney and I just have two shows in Sydney.

Andy Gott: wonderful. Sarah Keyworth, you are queer. And thank you very much for your tracks.

Sarah Keyworth: thank you very much!

Andy Gott: you can find Sarah Keyworth with online at links in this episode, show notes. 

Tracks of our quiz is presented and produced by me. Andy Gott. 

Entirely on unceded Gadigal and Ngarigo Aboriginal land. You can email me your thoughts, recommendations or gay ramblings to tracksofourqueers@gmail.com. See you next time.