Annie Frost Nicholson, artist

Annie Frost Nicholson is a multi-disciplinary artist based in London. It's easier to list which forms of art she doesn't bring her magic too, but I have particularly fallen in love with her visual meditations on loss, grief, and a lust for life.

Annie's own experience of a particularly unique tragedy has coloured her work ever since, leading right up to her roaming Grief Rave.

In this conversation, we discuss music by Pulp, New Order, and Prince.

You can follow Annie on Instagram here, explore her website here, and listen to her BBC World Service documentary here.

Tracks of Our Queers is produced, presented and edited by Andy Gott.

You can listen to our Spotify playlist, Selections from Tracks of Our Queers, and find Aural Fixation in your favourite podcast provider.

Transcript

Annie Frost Nicholson

[00:00:00] hello, welcome to Tracks of our Queers. My name is Andy Gott, and each episode I chat to a fascinating queer person about one song, one album, and one artist that have soundtracked their life. 

Annie Frost Nicholson is an artist across so many disciplines, I genuinely do not know where she finds the hours in the day.

But regardless of form, all of her work seeks to smash taboos around the nuanced complexities of the human condition.

Annie's practice, in her words, looks at what it means to be alive. And her preoccupation with life, death, grief, and all their permeations follows her own devastating loss of family members 12 years ago at the age of 27.

 I highly recommend googling Annie's incredible art, but after listening to this episode, check out her interview on the BBC World Service show, Heart and Soul. It's an awe inspiring portrait of [00:01:00] channeling grief that most of us cannot imagine into something truly wonderful.

I'll link to that episode in the show notes. But for now, stick around for Annie's queer tracks. 

 Just a note on sound quality, we did record Annie's vocals in a slightly echoey space, so I want to apologize in advance for any difficulty in listening. If you enjoy this episode, please subscribe. Leave a rating or review in your app or even best or even better, tell a friend or even better tell a friend.

Tracks of our queers is a totally independent production and labour of love. So if you would like to help keep the podcast ad free, you can show your support by buying me a coffee via the link in the show notes.

 Every penny goes to episode production. Over to Annie. 

Andy Gott: Annie Nicholson, welcome to Tracks of our Queers.

Annie Nicholson: Thanks so much for having me.

Andy Gott: Annie, I'd love to hear about what role did music take in your [00:02:00] childhood? Who was influencing you?

Annie Nicholson: One of my big sisters, Sonya, would always have she was really amazing at making mix tapes, so, That was a great kind of way of like learning about, music taking you through different eras or different chapters and you know, honestly she was like the best mixtape kind of maker.

So that, you know, was, I guess, one of my first experiences around. Like the sensory power of, music and, I like was obsessed with dance routines and, you know, just loved kind of, you know, going through that sort of journey of discovering new music, like music that was like entirely fresh to my ears that you know, never been had before, you know.

So I think when you are forming your your whole. Yeah, my whole, I remember my whole sort of self just being like, oh my God, what is this? My dad also had like, not really any kind of volume control on his music either.

So really loud car, I'd be so embarrassed, you know, like as a teenager. [00:03:00] And he like dropped me off at school with really loud Bob Dylan and he used to drive like Cadillacs Andan and stuff. And that

Yeah, it was kind of mad in like a tiny little village with really narrow minded people.

So, you know, that was something to deal with as well. But yeah, no, it was always around and I guess you know, it's been interesting cuz since I've lost them all, it's been a huge part of my survival to listen to music and to kind of, music sort of features so much in my work now, which has surprised me actually 

Andy Gott: Do you recall maybe the first artist or album that you found that was yours, that was Annie's, that hadn't been given to you by your sister or your dad?

Annie Nicholson: Yeah, I mean it's probably really embarrassing. Probably like, I love when we were teenagers, you know, you used to have those, like those now compilations, you

know, And you have them on like a double cassette and you take them, put them on your Walkman and take them on like a school trip to France or something.

 And I still, I realized that you can find them [00:04:00] and you can pay them back. And we had a long drive the other day and I'm like, oh my God. It's like, yeah, I don't wanna say it was banger after banger, cuz it definitely wasn't, but it was like very nostalgic and then like, I think for a long time I kind of copied my sister's taste.

So, things like. Yeah, prince and Michael Jackson and very of the era stuff, And then, yeah, I think some of my own tastes were pretty different, like spice and

Andy Gott: Mm-hmm. 

Annie Nicholson: really bad stuff. But now, it's weird, isn't it? Because I think every piece of music has a real nostalgic reference.

 I'm able to really set the scene of. You know what I can remember so clearly the first time I heard something where I was, and I remember like the first time I heard this massive attack song and like I was with my sister who was driving, cause she was 12 years older than me and she was smoking out of the car window.

[00:05:00] And I just remember saying to her like, can you, can we have this game? Can we play this again? And it was on a tape. . And tried to like copy that tape and, you know, all it, just loved it.

Just really loved that. The Blue Lines album.

Andy Gott: I love that, Annie. And not one of your selections today, but could have been. That's an amazing album. But I just love the idea of this sister 12 years older, my sister is about 15 years older than me and absolutely a huge musical influence in ways that I'm only really thinking of hearing your own story, but.

Prince Madonna, Alanis Morissette and probably having the income that I could never have dreamed of to go out and buy whatever CD she wanted to do was just in itself so glamorous to me. The idea of not having to wait until Christmas, like she could just go and get it.

Annie Nicholson: I think in those days, unless you bought it, you had to wait for it to show up on the radio. You had to [00:06:00] like really try and like grab it where you could, you couldn't just get it. Any has. 

And so for that reason of, you know, not having any income, obviously your kids and not much pocket money, I used to buy singles and Sonya, my sister, would say to me like, this is just moronic. You never buy singles. , you know, and she'd just be like, don't go down to Woolworths and buy singles.

But I did because I only had like two pounds or something.

And. 

Andy Gott: Sonya. It's a case of

Annie Nicholson: Yeah, it's economy and you need somebody leftover for the pick and mix as well. So it's like, right, I just gotta really work this out. But yeah, I had loads of crappy singles for a long time and then started actually buying albums, you know, and it's funny cuz we don't really listen to full albums anymore because of Spotify and everything.

But the albums that I've bought, they're still so embedded in me that I, if I listen to them now, I know, instinctively what's coming next. I just, my memory is like set in, you know?

Andy Gott: Okay, so your sister in a massive mixtape wiz, and I'm sure now she'd be pumping out the [00:07:00] Spotify playlists. What was so remarkable about her playlist? If you can remove yourself a little bit from the awe of an older sibling, was she, creating like journeys or stories with the music

Annie Nicholson: Yeah, I think at that time for me there, it was also a kind of passport out of the very limited village life, you know, that I was living in, that I never had a kind of taste for. Really, you know, some people love all of that. I just couldn't wait to get out. So even from being tiny, I wanted like adventure and, you know, sort of a really big city life and I just really couldn't wait to live.

So it was like a way of like imagining yourself moving out of that. And so there was a freedom to it and there was like a real kind of coolness and sexiness to it. And I just really wanted to be in that world, you know? Cuz yeah, growing up in the village,, in the uk in the eighties, it was like, You know, and I think it pretty much hasn't really changed, like, just pretty narrow minded.[00:08:00]

Didn't really like secondary school. Like I just didn't wanna stay.

Andy Gott: What 

was the village you grew up in?

Annie Nicholson: it was called Padbury in Buckinghamshire, sort of an hour from North London. And all my dad's business was like working in Kosher butcher shops in North London. So it was I guess some space.

 But it wasn't by any means harrowing or anything. But it wasn't my scene. These were not really my kind of people and, but you know, you haven't found your people, so you're like, oh my God. 

And because she was older and cuz she could drive and cuz she's half Italian, so she would kind of have this whole like excitement to her as well that I just wanted to literally cling onto in any way I could. And she was cool. You know, she'd wear like berries and she'd smoke and she'd like always smelled of really kind of nineties cologne, like GI Armani a

Andy Gott: Oh, love it.

Annie Nicholson: and you know, and she had really amazing designer clothes. 

Andy Gott: A lot of what you're saying some might say yes, that, that they could be universal [00:09:00] things with an older cool sibling. But what I'm hearing there is there's a lot about that story and relationship, which to me, I read as queer as in this younger child. And it doesn't have to be an older sister.

There's the trope of the fabulous cool auntie who blows in from overseas full of gifts. Or it could be the cousin or the whatever. There's something about that younger person looking to this older, cool person in their life as like you said, a passport out. Of that life that they know in the village.

The gray the bland and they hurricane in and they hurricane out and everything I'm hearing there, yes, checks out as this older sibling, but I think it's something that a lot of queer people can probably relate to as well.

Annie Nicholson: Yeah. I mean, she represented for me so many roles in my life, I mean, I, I like totally pedestal her and, you know, learn from her. And she, you know, is also queer. And I think that's probably why she left the village. Like, and it took her forever to [00:10:00] kind of actually tell my parents and things that she moved to Sydney.

She lived there until she died. She had a restaurant there for late 17 years. On King Street in Newtown. And I could see every time she was coming back, , cuz I was still a teenager, I could see like all this growth and all this amazing kind of change and, just really wanted to find out more about that and be a part of her life and there and cause I think when someone moves to Australia from here, it's.

It is so far away, you know, there's a total adjustment. It's not like moving to Greece or something like it is, you know, there is a huge shift in a whole world of, distance and things. So I think, yeah, I just really wanted to sort of be in her life. 

But yes, she was kind of like both parents to me, like a big sister, like a just this solid sort of rock person. But the love was just so, it's a sort of unconditional love that I've never really known. You know, it's just so powerful and. I think with, [00:11:00] with her in the world, I felt like totally anchored.

Even if she was in Australia for most of our, you know, she lived there for a long time and without her in the world, I felt entirely lost. You know, and sometimes I still do.

Andy Gott: What a powerful love that would've been to anchor you from literally the other side of the world. That's magical to hear. 

Okay, so, you create art as the Fandango kid, and you create, I would say, a, a vast, diverse. Array of different art forms, it's impossible to pin you down to one art form.

And I love that, I love exploring your work and all the different facets to it, but so much of your work is driven by a story of incredible family loss and. I would say, correct me if I'm wrong, but creating opportunities for people to engage with their own grief through your art, whether visual, whether music based, whether something else.

So I'd love to ask, can you [00:12:00] recall a moment when you might hear some music that reminded you of a loved one that you'd lost and was there a transition period where. Your emotions were moving from a pain to more of a joy, or is it always gonna be a mix of the two?

Annie Nicholson: I think there are songs that I attach. I mean, there's so many songs that I build this sort of, you know, somehow built the framework of my life around. So, you know, there's, there's songs from my twenties that, you know, reference pulling. There are so many things that are just, you know, I think nostalgia's obviously, you know, can be a very misleading, sometimes quite a kind of dangerous thing, but I think.

It can also be a really comforting thing and you know, the way we hold memory through music is a bit of a portal to that, to that person to that time. It kind of, you know, if you have, you know, I think when your grief is really raw, sometimes it's a even very hard to even listen to that song cuz it [00:13:00] really can transport you back to that.

But when time passes and as time passes, there's a real comfort I think in that music and, You know, in some ways it's like to still be listening to it now and know that those are like songs that relate very much to that person and your life together. I think it's a kind of act of resilience.

It's like a way to sort of push through and push forward. It's like, here I am, it's just me now, but I'm still listening to this cuz it brings me to you and actually there are songs that are just pure kind of joy for me and, As I move through life and any success that I might have or any joy that I might have, or any sort of big feelings of, positive, great feelings like falling in love and stuff, I accept that they're kind of always tinged 

with, 

with, with a sort of bitter sweetness because my family, who is so dead to me have lost, can't be here to kind of, to celebrate that with me and, you know, and I know that they would love that.

 So I think there's always a bit of a bittersweetness for sure, but I, I find more [00:14:00] comfort in it than, than not.

Andy Gott: Yeah, for sure. You produce and present the Grief Mixtape, which is your show for rough trade books on Soho radio. And I love your description of it as an ode to Love Lost and a direct line to people's homes and hearts when we need a dose of tenderness. So what have you learned about the connection between grief and music for other people?

Annie Nicholson: It's interesting because many people that come on the show say, you know, I don't have any grief, or I don't have any kind of particular losses that I wanna talk about. And it's so weird because it's often those various same people who, they kind of unpack themselves on the show and it's almost now a kind of point of like, every time someone comes on the show, they pretty much do cry and it's like, okay, this is what we kind of prerecorded because everyone will cry.

And they say that they find it cathartic and you know, it's a real honor to obviously hold that space with people and, you know, be trusted with that too. So I I think the [00:15:00] opportunity to share music that connects you to people that you have loved and lost all times of your life that you've loved and lost are very painful transitions or episodes, et cetera, you know?

Because, you know, it can also be around kind of living active grief or political grief, climate grief or all these different intersections. But I think the opportunity for people to do that and, have a conversation and then listen back to the old episodes, is a way of sort of knowing that, you know, yes, we've, all of our losses, you know, to some extent very unique to us, an individual, but there's also a real universality and that kind of maybe can help to bridge a gap around, you know, feeling less alone with it.

Andy Gott: I've listened to a few of the episodes 

and like you say that you hear from people or they might not think that they know what to talk about, and you naturally let it unfold and the conversations flow.

I often feel like that when unpacking with people, what is it about the music that they enjoy and how that touches on or resonates. With their identity as a queer person, because often [00:16:00] people might not think that there's necessarily a connection, so I guess I'd love to know a little bit about your own identity and when you were figuring out your queerness and do you think there's any connection with the music that you love as a result?

Annie Nicholson: I think probably Sonya, my sister Sonya, had a really big impact in terms of like just, you know, seeing her become who she always was, you know, and being able to do that eventually and kind of being able to be free with that and you know, and kind of navigating so much of her young life through music and, you know, and I think when I look back she was never gonna stand in the village and like marry a straight man, and that's what people were doing. That seemed to be the only way of living. We didn't know any queer people really, you know, when we were growing up.

So I can just imagine like for her, that would've been so limiting. And I think as soon as both of us. Got out of that environment, we really [00:17:00] gravitated almost instantly to that, world and it felt probably the most ourselves we had ever felt, you know? And I was so excited to kind of be invited into her world.

And then when I came back to the UK and started uni, it was like, yeah, she kind of, it was like a bit of a baptism, you know, it's, it's such a great way to start my adult life. And then I think, you know, my parents were living in Portugal, my sister Sonya, in Australia.

And I think there were for a long time through my twenties and thirties, , a lot of people kind of coming together who were building their own family, in like non-conventional ways.

And I think that for me it was a really long journey, to meet my partner Lara. And I was very much dating men but like the worst of men, you know, like the worst of kind of like straight men. And it was just honestly like chilling, harrowing, heartbreaking,

like crushing.

 There were a few okay moments within it, [00:18:00] but mostly it was just, it, it like speaking another language, like literally speaking the language that you don't have any grasp on. You don't have any grasp on the structure, but no grasp on the communication or what anything means.

 I just remember just feeling so lost by all of that. And then, meeting Lara for me was like, it's so illuminating and like an absolute life changer, you know, and life saver in many ways.

 I feel like it sort of took me into an era. Sort of beyond my wildest dreams really, cause I've been through so much grief and I was like, okay, well I'll probably have an okay career, you know, like, but it'd be fine and that's a real point of survival for me, but I don't think I'm gonna need someone be like significant because, yeah. It just didn't feel like that was possible for me. 

And I was sort of just accepting of that at that point. So I was like, you know, you can't have it all, you know, you're not dead. You've managed the survive of this. ,you know, you have a relatively good life, but you're probably not gonna meet someone.

 And then when I was, I was sort of at that point and when I met Lara and really [00:19:00] did quite open-heartedly, throw myself into it. It, yeah. In a sort of post-trauma mind. I'm like, something bad has to happen because you can't have everything you want, you know, like, oh my God, you know, this is just phenomenal and it just gets better and better really.

Andy Gott: You're giving me shivers hearing this story. This is so beautiful. So I just think no better segue than that to get into your selections. So you picked a track and album and an artist, and I'd love to know which track you picked and why.

Annie Nicholson: So I picked babies by Pulp which is something that I listened to when it first came out and didn't have that much connection to, although I liked the song. When I first met Lara and we were coming out of the pandemic, it was like summer, 2020, so I had to do some work in Lisbon and Lara, we just kind of got together in France and [00:20:00] Lara was going back London and she decided to come meet me in Lisbon in

Andy Gott: This is a lot of travel for summer 2020. Can I

Annie Nicholson: I know, I know. Honestly. And that's why it was so exciting cuz we were kind of like, oh my God, are we actually doing this? That we've actually got, you know, across the borders and, it was really quite like wild given the time. 

And so I was, Ebo and Laura came to meet me and we decided we were gonna drive to the south, which is where my parents lived for 25 years and the house that, you know, my dad died in and, you know, it was just, yeah, lot, lot of memories.

And they've been living there, in that area since the eighties. So all of our childhood was like based here and I hadn't been back since my dad had died. And I knew I had to go down there and get a bunch of furniture and stuff. And I just hadn't been able to find. You know, it just wasn't the right time and I didn't wanna do it on my own.

And I, I also didn't really wanna do it with anyone. 

And then I decided, after a lot of deliberation, okay, I'm gonna do this, I'm gonna do this with Laura, I'm gonna drive down there and we're [00:21:00] gonna kind of reappropriate this, and make it something, you know, that I can have a bit of agency over and with rather than just sort of brief dominating you, you know?

 As we were driving down, we got to my parents' old house and the neighbors were still there and they let us have a look around and we met the new owners and everything and just saw this tree where we planted. I'd given my mom a lemon tree and then we put her ashes in there and just, it's a lot of emotions, a lot of feelings.

All these feelings coming back. And as we left, we were driving down to the beach, which is like five minutes from the house, and this song came on and we just turned it up really loudly and it was just so many tears and this beautiful feeling of like, you know, bringing a bit of the past with you, like you don't have to section that off cuz it's too painful. 

Like you can go and you can revisit them and you can bring them along with you and, into the present and into the future with you and you can kind of always carry them and and just felt, really felt [00:22:00] them with me and, you know, so much possibility and so much sort of hope for being alive and, not just sort of monologues with the dead, but like really being alive and.

I felt like they would've been really happy to see me living rather than just sort of yearning for them. So that's, that's that song.

Andy Gott: I, I love that. Annie, I have to ask, when you, when you had that experience, did you feel like this was it, I'm not gonna come back here again. Or when you had that moment where you're like, well, I might come back here again because this could be part of my future and it's not necessarily stuck in the past.

Annie Nicholson: Yeah, it's funny cuz I guess, you know, it was no longer, the area that I've been so worried about revisiting cuz of so much pain. I guess it's sort of that, pain Veil had kind of been removed, so it was just a bit [00:23:00] more like, you know this, this is a place you've had some beautiful memories here and like beautiful times that have been so full of love.

And you don't have to be scared of that because you're not alone and it's always probably gonna be upsetting, but it's also really beautiful and you can try and maybe merge these, but you don't have to like lock it off, you know? So who knows, maybe we will go back and, Maybe it'll become more integrated.

That's sort of, grief therapists would say integrate as much as you can. 

Andy Gott: And then I have to ask were there lemons on the lemon tree?

Annie Nicholson: Yeah. There wa it's, yes, great treat. It's really like given a lot of fruit over the years. So I think, I wonder if mum's ashes have like treated to that. I dunno. But it's really, yeah, it's 

Andy Gott: that. 

Annie Nicholson: It always did really well.

Andy Gott: I love lemon trees, Emma. I love that story. So the album, same again. Why and What?

Annie Nicholson: So the album is Substance new order, and this is, one of my first. Memories of an, of a full album. You know, it's like, [00:24:00] that's a double album. It's also really striking, visually as well and I even had like a t-shirt with it.

 I just loved everything about it. And when I was a kid, my sister would go to the, and I was like, where is this place? Oh my God. And I would. Like hear about it and didn't even see I would have it described to me. So I didn't even see, you know, until much later with the internet, like what it actually looked like, so I would just see album covers and then have this place described and so I made up this very visually lush kind of idea of it in my mind and and that's what I wanted to do.

But of course when I was old enough, it had actually shut.

Andy Gott: It's a turn into apartments or something.

Annie Nicholson: Yeah, I think so. So yeah, I loved I had a few like real repeats on there, like bizarre love triangle ceremony is, is the one, you know. [00:25:00] It. Is a real go-to and there's a joy in it, there's a safety, but there's also a bit of excitement and a bit of danger even.

You know, I love to have it on my, I mean, in my mind I love to have it on my headphones and just kind of do. Yeah, like I'd be walking around London and I just, it takes me into a whole other world and it's, you know, something that I would've listened to on like really long bus rides home after, like work in your first job when you're kind of taking buses all across the city cuz that's, yeah. And it would get me through, you know, I used to love like a full bus route and that would be like the length of the album on 

Andy Gott: Yes. Yes. Oh my gosh. I just don't even know where to start with new order, but something that came to mind as I was listening to you then is that they are firmly from the eighties and even, some of their music, firmly late seventies, but they. Are eternally [00:26:00] cool and it's something that we could even tap into as teenagers and hope, and I'm assuming teenagers now, when they hear new order for the first time, the old does not cancel out the call whatsoever.

Annie Nicholson: Actually years later in a free market in Lisbon, I thought I managed to get this new order. Single. And it's like I mean, never buy singles, but I was like, I've got to buy it. And

it's, 

uh, it's 

Andy Gott: Annie, you are a single buyer.

Annie Nicholson: just, it's like I'm just gonna just accept that and it's like a green marbled, limited edition.

Oh my God. It's just so beautiful. So it's like I'm buying this single and I'm gonna ignore someone's voice in my head and do it but, yeah, it's a very special place for me.

Andy Gott: So you mentioned ceremony and bazaar love triangle. Do you have any other faves from the album?

Annie Nicholson: So temptation is a, so on the video temptation There's a woman dancing in her apartment and it's looks like it's like Paris or something.

And she basically goes and she steals a record from a record shop in Paris and walking down straight. And then she puts it on her [00:27:00] apartment and she just dances around. And that is like, that was a real. Kind of grief thing for me. Not stealing records, but like dancing around, you know, on my own, in my flat because I really missed like, dance floors, but I also couldn't really deal with the unknown, so I just really needed like a safety.

So I was like, okay, just try and create my own within my own four walls. And, but I loved a morning dance or an evening dance, or, you know, pretty much every day. That would be what I would do. And there was a real sort of release enjoying that as well.

 I think when you've lost someone or when you're in trauma safety becomes almost the most important thing in your life cuz you just can't bear to go back to that terror of, of the unknown and not knowing if you're gonna survive something.

So safety just becomes absolutely paramount. But also you wanna connect to some of the old things you did when you were[00:28:00] freer and not ravaged by grief. And dancing for me was one of those and it was a way to hold onto. Some of the youth that I felt like I'd lost through the grieving.

Andy Gott: Annie, do you think that your sister suspected that you were queer? Did that ever come up in your relationship?

Annie Nicholson: I think she was always like, oh my God, you all have like some phenomenally bad taste in in men and I can sort of tell that you're just sort of going through the motions kind of thing. And then I think she was sort of, you know, she was setting an example. And it's interesting cause both my sisters well all my sisters, because I recently discovered I have a new sister, but all my sisters Yeah. Have made really strong choices with their, with their partners and, you know, and all of those are living very differently to the way.

Our parents lived. And you know that, no disrespect to our parents, but there was such a, a clearly distinct choice to live differently. [00:29:00]

Andy Gott: The artists that you picked, I'd love to know why and who they are.

Annie Nicholson: I guess it kind of in many ways speaks for itself. So Prince, and I think obviously the body of work is just phenomenal. But also I think, a big part of that was like his identity and who he was in what, and this kind of unapologetic like, not being defined by any kind of gender norms and Yeah. As a kid and just going through life and seeing all these many incarnations of Prince as well and as he moved through his career and his life and it was quite jaw dropping on many occasions to like see him and, what he was singing, what he was doing, how he was moving on the stage, and what he was wearing and all the details of him.

And I was just obsessed and it has the power to really me feel. Like it takes me into a world where I feel safe again. You know?

Andy Gott: Do you remember ever being [00:30:00] confused by Prince as a often feminine presenting man, but also speaking so strongly of his love for women in quite a sexy way?

Annie Nicholson: It was interesting cause I remember there were times when I was like, oh, I've got like real desire prints and then there were times like where I was like, I. Really want to just be Prince. Wow. You know, like there's so much here that I just, like, he's got, I've got like a massive crush on Prince, but I also how can we all be more like Prince?

 It was like all really paying attention to the details and like recording you know, mu music videos and then playing them back and like pausing and, that kind of thing. So, yeah, I think there was a lot going on there in the village for a little young forming mind.

And I just loved him so much.

Andy Gott: Wendy and Lisa who worked with Prince for years they were asked in an interview once if they thought Prince was gay and they said, prince is not gay, but he is a fancy lesbian.

Annie Nicholson: That's great. 

That's great.[00:31:00]

Yeah. He, I just, I don't know. Did he ever speak about that? Like did he ever speak publicly about anything like that?

Andy Gott: it's complicated because he was also an incredibly religious person and there's sometimes a discomfort in his embrace of femininity and sex with his strong religious beliefs, which don't always go hand in hand with. Homosexuality acceptance. And I'm a huge Prince fan, and I've played with this over the years because visually he did so much. Imagine the eighties. 

You know, we had so many amazing people like Boy George and and of course coming off the back of David Bowie, but Prince again was breaking those gender norms in a time when we needed it the most. And turning up on stage at award ceremonies with, his ass hanging out in lace chaps and so sexy, but so camp and so queer and pairing that with his.

Adoration of [00:32:00] the feminine. Yes. He was clearly talking about his deep attraction to women. But what I took from that , as a gay man, I'm not sexually attracted to women, but I love women and I love everything that a woman is. And that's where I tapped into princes as well.

And it's complicated. 

Annie Nicholson: Yeah, it's complic. But I think that when you are kind of bold enough to do that in, in the public eye like so consistently, I think that gives such a kind of confidence to your audience as well. I think about that now and I, I always wish that I'd seen him perform and you will never have another prince, you know.

Andy Gott: If you are approached by a young person, let's say you're in a bar and you're talking about your love of Prince , what are the top three songs that you insist they go away and listen to?

Annie Nicholson: I really, really love 17 days with the piano version, and it [00:33:00] also takes you on a real journey. And I think that's just such a romantic, like beautiful song. 

I like sign of the times.

 That's a real running song, repeat song for me. And , well, it's really hard to pick the third one, like a definitive three, but city is one that I always loved, so There's so many. It's an 

private. Joy is, 

Andy Gott: as I was asking it. There's hundreds we could pick. Annie, just before we wrap up, something I wanted to ask you at the start, but I forgot and now I get to ask you about is the grief rave. So we

Annie Nicholson: Oh yeah. 

Andy Gott: mixtape, but tell me and our listeners all about the grief rave.

Annie Nicholson: So the grief, rave grief, [00:34:00] RAs are a series of things we're doing this year around this thing called the Fandango Disco, which is a touring disco based on a, like a sixties kiosk that we've just been in Berlin kind of making, cause they come from. Kind of Cold War era built in Slovenia.

They were all across the, the eastern block during Cold War. And they were used for all different kind of purposes, but we've managed to reclaim one and turn it into a little disco, and it's coming to London and we are gonna host some grief waves within it.

And we've already been running them in different sites and it's basically a way to bring people together. To explore all the different intersections of their grief. And that can be living active grief as well, which, for example, we've had, a lot of yeah, like queer grief and shame, but brought into this, this space as well.

 Like political grief or or bereavement or you know, all kinds of grief. But these things intersecting together and coming to a space where you [00:35:00] feel that you can share those songs that kind of connect you to like freedom and release and safety and togetherness.

While also exploring and kind of working through the, the individual experience of whatever it is that you're bringing. And we never intend to do anything prescriptive. The idea is just about creating, safe space for that to be shared. So facilitating kind of safety rather than prescribing how you have to.

Show up. And each time is very different. Each location's very different. Obviously people are always very different, but what they're bringing is such rich and, important experiences that they share in a space. And people sort of shake it all out together and you see people actually exchanging numbers and stories and it's so beautiful and Quite simple, really. 

Andy Gott: And so people can either bring a cassette or a vinyl, is that correct?

Annie Nicholson: Yeah, they can bring all the analog stuff but people tend to love bringing vinyls. So our [00:36:00] friend Nick, who has a portable sound system with Street Sound system, he can play yeah, CDs, tapes, and vinyls. So, it's nice for people to bring that and actually have it in their hands and. That's also a nice prop when you're talking about something really, really

Andy Gott: is, but there's something in that right of that physical. Representation of that memory that you're carrying, that person that you're carrying that can't be replicated with a link to a Spotify song.

Annie Nicholson: yeah, I guess there's the ceremony of like, thinking about that person, thinking about that period of time, taking the vinyl out of the sleeve, and the artwork and the whole experience and then putting it on and, the ceremony of maybe pouring a drink rather than just having it on in the background and not engaging.

It feels active.

Andy Gott: And then finally, is there a queer initiative or social media account you'd like to give a shout out to?

Annie Nicholson: Well, I would recommend reading nara, hows novels? Her first one is out in June next year. It's called Monumental. It's a story about grief and Europe [00:37:00] and reclaiming and yeah, it's a really beautiful story and and I would explore her work in general.

Andy Gott: Great. Well, Annie Nicholson, you are queer and thank you very much for your tracks.

You can find out more about Annie and her work in this episode's show notes.

This episode was produced, recorded and edited on unceded Gadigal land by me, Andy Gott. You can email me at tracksofourqueers at gmail. com or you can follow the pod at tracksofourqueers on social media. 

See you next time.