Larry Flick, journalist

Larry Flick is a former senior editor at Billboard Magazine, broadcaster for Sirius XM, and LGBTQ+ activist. He joins me for the first episode of our second season.

We discuss tracks by Paul Parker, Sylvester, Bronski Beat, and David Bowie.

You can follow Larry on Instagram here.

Tracks of Our Queers is produced, presented and edited by Andy Gott.

You can listen to our Spotify playlist, Selections from Tracks of Our Queers, and find Aural Fixation in your favourite podcast provider. 

Transcript

Larry Flick
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Andy Gott: [00:00:00] Hello, you're listening to Tracks of Our Queers and specifically the first episode of our second season. My name is Andy Gott. 

This podcast was born from a desire to document conversations I was already having with anyone unlucky enough to engage with me over a dinner table or in a loud bar. Few topics fire me up more than unpacking the musical moments that have soundtracked our lives, and I figured that if I was interested in them, there's a decent chance that others would be as well.

Recording over Zoom, as many of the conversations you'll hear over the next few weeks have been, is not identical to a passionate unpacking in a pub. However, it has allowed me to talk to truly fascinating queers from around the globe. 

Some are folks I've been dying to chat to for years, some are people recommended to me by previous guests, and some were even compelled to reach out to me after connecting with [00:01:00] episodes themselves.

All of this to say, the podcast concept so far has been validated. Music, indeed, makes the people come together. Especially the queers, and I can't wait for you to hear what's coming up.

If you've ever scrolled through a wikipedia article for pretty much any track or album released in the 90s and beyond, you'll have found Larry Flick's review quoted somewhere on the page. As a senior editor at Billboard Magazine for 14 years, Larry was one of the most influential figures in American music journalism.

He's interviewed Madonna no less than nine times, he gave Britney Spears her first magazine cover, and he broke Adele in the United States, not to mention a stint of private music consultancy work for Prince.[00:02:00] 

As you'll soon hear, he's also been a powerful advocate for LGBTQ plus rights and visibility from an early age and right up to present day.

After decades of New York City living, Larry and his partner moved to the Welsh countryside during the pandemic, but his finger is no less on the pulse of what's queer and now.

If you enjoy this episode, please subscribe, leave a rating or review in your app, or even better, tell a friend. Tracks of Our Queers is an entirely independent production, so if you'd like to help keep the podcast ad free, you can shout me a coffee via the link in the show notes. Every penny goes to episode production.

Over to Larry.

You can find out more about Larry in this episode's show notes, or follow him on Instagram at larry underscore flick. This episode was produced, recorded and edited on [00:03:00] unceded Gadigal land by me, Andy Gott. You can email me at tracksofourqueers at gmail. com. Follow the podcast at at tracksofourqueers on social media.

And if you're not already, of course, please subscribe. See you next time.



Hello Larry Flick and welcome to Tracks of our Queers.

Larry Flick: Thank you. It's a pleasure to be here. Time, take one. Sips.

Andy Gott: Wonderful. Let's kick off with where did you grow up and more importantly, what was playing at home?

Larry Flick: I was raised in the Bronx, New York City. I was born in 1963, also known as the Stone Ages to a lot of young people these days. And, and the great thing about being born and raised in the [00:04:00] Bronx is that it was wonderfully integrated, socially, racially, yeah. There was none of this like, oh, I don't know how to get along with black people, and the whole adage of like, it takes a village was in practice. All the moms in the neighborhood looked after all the kids in the neighborhood. When they were out and about and doing things. 

So that's where I was raised. It was awesome. And even though my parents and my family has no musical aptitude, it was always music playing. And I think it might be because my parents got married as a teenagers. They were 16 and 17 when they got married, 17 and 18 when they had me. I'm the first born.

And so they were hippies, actual hippies, the long and the beard and all that stuff. So there was always music. So my mom was a pop music soul girl, [00:05:00] and my dad was a rock guy. I was raised around Motown and Doo music and Diana Ross and my dad, you know, listened to Hendrix and Joplin and, all that stuff.

And they had the greatest record collection ever and I would play the records all the time. And in fact this is no exaggeration or embellishment, by the time I was six, I was playing records at their house, parties with their friends. And I figured out pretty quickly at that age, playing music sisters. I'd have to, I'd get to stay up and be with the grownups. And so,

Andy Gott: youngest DJ in New

Larry Flick: the youngest DJ in New York, for real. And and I loved it. And I didn't, you know, I didn't have conscious thought of it other than this is fun. Look, they're all dancing. In retrospect, I understood the power of a record [00:06:00] and the power of a record that moved people.

Andy Gott: Can you remember listening to a song which made you maybe feel a little bit different, but you couldn't necessarily articulate why?

Larry Flick: There were a few of them. Music was something I reached for, for a lot of reasons. A, I liked it. It tickled my ears, it made me smile, but it also became a companion. Cause we did move a lot after a certain point. There was a block of time from between say 10 and 14, where we moved a lot.

And it, you know, it took my natural shyness to a higher level. Plus I was bullied. So music was like a, like a soothing force in my life. I remember listening to a 60 song called Crimson En Clover by Tommy James and the shs, and it had this great passage toward the end where Tommy James would [00:07:00] go, effect, would make kinda, and to me it felt like he was taking off into another world and I wanted to go to that other world. I really wanted to go to that other, I couldn't, words to, I knew that I didn't the, I was living in.

Andy Gott: I'm loving this. 

Larry Flick: When I was nine years old, my very Catholic family, decided that it was time for me to learn about God and the Bible and so we had in an apartment building where my father was the superintendent, we had a fella named John who was studying to be a priest. And he agreed to let me come and. [00:08:00] Learn about the Bible in his apartment. It's funny because you know, in 2023, no one would send their son to a single man, potentially priests apartment to learn about God.

It shows you how different times were. And he was a wonderful man. Probably the most influential person in. He taught me about the Bible and he told me stories and he triggered this belief in a higher power that I carry to this day.

And one of the ways that he did it was he played songs for me. And it would be my reward, right? Yeah, here's the deal. You pay attention to your lessons to me, you're learning, and I'll play you songs. And I said, that's awesome. And he played Morning Has Broken by Cat Stevens for me. 

[00:09:00] I was mesmerized by his fingers, moving along with, I'd never seen a song played live before. To hear the music coming outta this guy, it was like nothing I'd ever experienced.

It changed, you know, and for me in that moment was proof of God. And in listening to that song and having that feeling that nobody around me ever talked about, I knew in retrospect that there was something going on that I didn't understand. But that set me apart from other people because I was having this opportunity and something inside me was smart enough to take advantage of it nine year song, played under guitar as a viable treat. And I studied better than I studied for school exams. Because I wanted him to play me that song. He became my hero that day. 

That lasted for like three months and then he had to leave to go [00:10:00] to seminary. And my parents actually regretted sending me to him because they started to wonder if there was something going on.

And nothing was going on. It was as pure as a situation could be. It was actually the best thing they ever did for me because it was successful. It taught me about God, and it made me believe in God. So Job done, but my parents didn't like that. He was my hero. 

So these are the moments that like,

Andy Gott: I do wonder the irony of your parents being a little suspicious in that maybe they sense that something was up, even though for you as that nine year old, it was so pure and innocent and you were probably like, I don't see what the big deal is.

I just had this really beautiful experience. But for parents to twig that there was maybe another layer to, yes, you were falling in love with music, but it was also a lesson being delivered to you by this charismatic, handsome,

Larry Flick: Oh, yes, yes.[00:11:00] 

Andy Gott: wanted to take care of you in a way.

Larry Flick: It's very layered because. On one hand, I fell in love with him. As much as a boy could be in love, it wasn't like I wanted to kiss him or, you know, there was nothing sexual about it in the slightest.

I was just, I loved him. I don't think I had ever known love that deep before I met John. And the fact that he didn't want anything from me in retrospect was very powerful to me because, you know, I was raised during an era where you earn your parents love, right? To do well in school. You had to do your chores. And my parents started to figure out that I was figuring out what was going on around us. And I overheard an argument in the hall between,

what are you doing to our kid? And he like, Teaching him about God.

I'll never forget him telling me, you're gonna be okay. You're a good boy. [00:12:00] And you're not, you're a special boy and God sees you and gonna be all just hang in. And, the footnote to that is he left his guitar, me,

Andy Gott: That's a beautiful foot note.

Larry Flick: which my parents stand away.

Andy Gott: And not so beautiful footnote to the footnote.

Larry Flick: So, it was a lot, it was a lot for a nine year old.

Andy Gott: Yeah. That's an entire rollercoaster. And the rollercoaster truly continues because I now need to know how did a 15 year old Larry end up at Studio 54?

Larry Flick: Well, you've done your research. Okay, rewind just a tiny bit further. I was a, a tiny runt of a kid until puberty hit. And then when puberty hit, I decompressed like a life raft. I went from five feet tall to six feet tall. And I grew facial hit. And I think my parents knew intuitively that I was queer, so that when I showed interest in a girl, [00:13:00] they were so in, even though I was only 14 when I, when I met her.

My parents gave me very few boundaries cause they just really wanted me to be with this girl. And so I would take the train into the city, which was like about an hour from the Bronx, Manhattan. Because I was very tall and looked like I was much older I could get into clubs and back in the seventies pretty young boys and girls got into clubs no matter what. Studio 54 opened and I was like, we've gotta go. So we used to go down there every Friday and Saturday, me dressed in my best imitation, Tony Manero from Saturday Night Fever outfit, standing up the rope and going, pick me, pick me.

After about four months I got picked Mark Ben, who I actually used to work with, a serious radio, but back then he stood on, he was standing on like a, [00:14:00] and he pointed goes, you come on. I was like, oh my God, we're in. And I grabbed her by the wrist and I pulled her. I goes, oh no, not her, you. 

And she was like, you're gonna leave me? And I took the $20, 20 of the $40 my father gave me for the date. And I said, here, take a camp home.

but as I was walking, it was almost like her voice got quieter and the sound of the beat got louder. And and there I was 15 years old in Studio 54. 

I'll never forget, I was wearing black GA trousers with my marshmallow shoes. I'll forget long. I, and I walked in shirtless mustache, said, you like you need drink?

And he me cocktail. 

Andy Gott: Hot.

Larry Flick: and I stood there and I drank it, and I looked around and I was only there for about an hour because it just [00:15:00] overwhelmed me. But you talk about those pivotal moments in your life, right? I was like, I belonged here, but I don't know why. Every time I looked around, I would see beautiful men dancing with each other and

Andy Gott: Hmm.

Larry Flick: started to around that time because when, when my girlfriend and I would go to. In the straight clubs, back then, there would always be a corner of the dance floor populated by the queer men and they danced with each other. And I would always be like, wh somehow we always found ourselves not far from there. And I would be like, and I'd be craning over my neck or I would kind of start dancing and you know, so that she would be like with her back to them and I could just look at them while I was dancing. I was mesmer. I didn't know why. 

Andy Gott: You then went on to grow up in New York through the eighties and I always have to ask whenever I get the [00:16:00] opportunity, how did you. Experience a shift in nightlife and culture in the city as you were both figuring out your own identity.

But then of course there was the advent of HIV/AIDS.

Larry Flick: Well, eventually I broke up with my girlfriend, and I realized that I didn't need a girl to go into a club. I could go into a club by myself. And I went into a place called New York, New York, which was a pretty iconic club. And suddenly I realized that the men were looking at me as much as I was looking at them because I was underage chicken, as we used to call it back then. And I started to look around and think, I'm almost a man and I can almost do anything I want. And that's when I started to listen To different kinds of music. I started listening more to harder disco music as opposed to, you know, the top 40 disco music. And that was when I started doing things like [00:17:00] going to porn theaters to see what would happen. And of course, things would happen. And I started to realize that, , nothing terrible would happen to me if I danced with a man at a club.

And just when I was starting to figure it out, I started hearing about this gay cancer. But there was no printed materials about it. There were no news reports about it. I got my information about what AIDS was from a porn magazine that I had stolen from a local magazine store called Blue Boy, and it had a little corner in the box and

and it was like, do you have, and it listed like five symptoms. Then you may have AIDS. And from that point on, I used to do things like search my arms for Marks,

And every time I got a bruise, which was often because I, I'm clumsy as hell, I would think it was a lesion.

I was trying to reconcile my mind. If I'm going to be a [00:18:00] gay man, then I need to find out if I can have a life as a gay man. Like it can, you know, like, do gay men watch tv? These are like the questions you ask yourself when you're not exposed to it. And again, these are the seventies. This is not when it was everywhere.

People don't realize how wildly different, it was not that long ago. So, you know, I had to set out and figure it out and find out. I literally searched and searched and searched on foot through New York City to find any, you know, the areas that I found out eventually were gay parts of town searched to anything that looked like real life, but with gay people. And I came upon a bookstore called A Different Light and my eyes became like saucers. 

Then I discovered the Advocate.

I discovered the New York Native newspaper, which I later went to work for. I discovered that there was, there were politics and there were life [00:19:00] issues and life issues that had no relation to straight people. That's when I started to read about AIDS in a significant way. 

It was a very scary time in New York because you had the people who were in denial and you had the people who were terrified. And then you had the, who were basically walking the very different you village of New York City. And it was completely common to see a fella covered in lesions, or to see a fella who had no meat under his, his skin because he was wasting.

And the only drug that we had back then was a poison called a Z T. And we knew taking it meant that it was gonna potentially. Just leads you to your death. But for some very few people, it helped them. So men had no choice. They took it because there was nothing else. Then I became very political and started to [00:20:00] discover that there were things that we could get, but we had a president who wouldn't even acknowledge the existence of aids.

And I started to think, now this is my life and I'm coming out. And I came out when I was 21 and I became an active member of ACT Up for a number of years and participated in some very controversial, very potentially questionable actions. But I was young, and I didn't give a shit. I didn't wanna die. 

Andy Gott: And I wonder if there were a few other people like you taking part in these protests who were politicized by what was going on around them, and pushed them out of the closet earlier than they may have necessarily come out otherwise.

Larry Flick: I think So, I mean, I talked to a lot of people who were my age. I tended to be on the young side of the group of people that I was with. I mean, ACT was a very large organization. 

It always takes a minute for me to step out of my fear zone to walk in and do something.[00:21:00] And this was the only time in my life where I, I wasn't in the fear zone. I was just like, I don't have a choice because I don't wanna be some camp closet queen. And that was actually where I found my sense of being a man.

Andy Gott: You sent through a handful of songs, and timeline wise, it feels like now might be a good time to talk about

some of the music. 

Larry Flick: When you invited me to do this, I'm so thrilled doing this. It felt like what you wanted were the songs that helped you along on your journey. These are the songs, you know, back in mind, eh, you know, we didn't have a, we didn't have all these gay queer, , non-binary artists.

So it was like a treasure hunt to find anything that was. Actual queer. And there was this, this era of gay [00:22:00] producers using women to sing their songs because they didn't feel as they could sing them themselves.

But then there was like this underground of people who were like, fuck that. I'm gonna sing my own song. And that's where Paul Parker came in, right? Who was like,, the quintessential Marlboro man type during San Francisco high energy movement. For people who don't know, the high energy movement was one of the offshoots of the post disco era when disco quote unquote died.

Is splintered into a more regional thing. And you Chicago house out that you have the Gogo scene in Washington DC and you have the high energy scene. In San Francisco, which was almost like 99.9% queer. And it was mostly men and it had a certain bpm and Paul Parker was the heartthrob of that scene because he was beautiful and he had a big baritone voice and he linked up with a [00:23:00] couple of very talented producers, one of them being Patrick Cowley, who was one of innovators dance music. 

Andy Gott: And I believe one of the first artists of that era to be lost to aids.

Larry Flick: He died before he got his full. As a pioneer of all electronic, computerized dance music. If he had lived even just two years longer, he would've gotten the attention that Giorgio Moroder got.

So right on Target, was one of those songs that was fun to dance to. It was introduced to me by a fellow who ran a record story in New York City called a straight guy named Dennis Whitehill, who had The best, David Cassidy hairdo you ever saw.

And he and his wife ran the store knowing that they were geared toward DJs and particularly gay DJs. And I would go in and he'd be like, I've got some macho disco for you, which was code for gay music. So he [00:24:00] played this macho disco track called Right On Target and I bought two copies and became obsessed with it.

And that was before even knew what he looked like. I just liked the fact that Dennis was like, he is gay. This is a song about dating and loving and the mating dance. And it's happy, it's vibrant. It wasn't part of the whole like, you know, people are dying thing. And I thought I have to have it. And then when I saw what he looked like, I was like, I have to have him.

I'm sure by now. You've looked him up. He's gorgeous. And , he's still alive and making music, which is fantastic. 

Andy Gott: That was not the only Patrick Cowley production that you sent through, though you also shared 

Larry Flick: Menergy.

[00:25:00] The filthiest song ever. And I live well because like everybody else, I love, do you wanna funk and you make me feel mighty real and those were great, but again, the through line in my life is. Once you tweak my interest, I go on a treasure hunt to learn 

more. And so I did my hunting and all of a sudden I'm like, oh my God. So PE is a drag queen and isn't that fantastic? And looking to me, he's a big, you know, gorgeous guy, but he's a drag queen. And I loved it. And then I started to listen to the records and I was like, oh my God, these songs are about fucking, I thought, this is about what I secretly do. 

because I was living my double life because, you know, I was having a very active sex life by this point. But one of the things that came with the the advent of AIDS was there was also sex shaming and [00:26:00] slut shaming. And a lot of, people were, having boyfriends whom they never had sex with, and then they'd go to the back rooms and I was that guy and it was all about the energy of men mating like animals, right?

It was intense. But it was joyful. It was joyful. And you're just gonna give into it and you're not gonna feel bad about it.

You shouldn't feel bad about it. Sex is joy.

Andy Gott: Yes.

Larry Flick: That was like one of important messages for me, Menergy is as much an activist anthem as any other because it's about the joy of men doing what everybody else of different genders and different orientations do without, without the stigma and the shame attached to it. And I was on the hunt for that liberation and that feeling of pride. 

You know, when I think of [00:27:00] pride, I think of the politics, I think of the people. I tried to help as a queer man of political awareness, but I also think of all of the beautiful men I was lucky enough to have time with in both a platonic, and a sexual way. 

Andy Gott: And Menergy 

when I was writing down my overall impressions of the music that you'd sent through, I wrote down late seventies, early eighties, San Francisco's smokey nightclubs, backroom high energy, the harder side of what I know now that went on to become like stock Aiken Waterman.

I could see that there was an evolution there that that

stock, Aiken Waterman seemed to be that more chart friendly UK version of this harder San

Larry Flick: yes because of my career, I've had the [00:28:00] chance to know, the fellows, particularly Pete Waterman and I actually said to Pete once, okay, so which one of you hung out in gay bars

he laughed. 

Andy Gott: Someone had to,

Larry Flick: and I'm like, dude, one of your earliest artists was Divine. Give me a break. Number two. These songs sound like the records. I huffed poppers to at, the gay clubs in New York City. I'm not saying any of you are gay and they're all straight identified. I'm not saying any of that.

But you did make your millions on gay music and you made your millions on the gay club experience, and that's why your female artists always did better than your male artists. Except for let's face it, Rick Astley was everyone's favorite bottom in their fantasies because he was pretty, and, and he was like Rick's not gay.

And I'm like, I'm not saying Rick was gay, but I can tell you cuz I've sat at many a [00:29:00] brunch table with a lot of gay men saying, okay, so how would you make Rick Asley cry?

Andy Gott: The title of this podcast episode is gonna be everyone's Favorite. Bottom, Rick Astley. You also shared two songs by Brosky Beat, and I will call out that the two songs that you sent are, neither of them are small town boy, and correct me if I'm wrong, I wasn't hearing Jimmy Somerville in them.

The vocalist was different to me.

Larry Flick: So the songs I called out were hit that Perfect beat which was really the only hit from the album. These are two songs from the same album.

Beat Song Truth, dare Double Dare. Who was briefly the replacement after Jimmy went solo. And in many ways if, if age of consent was about coming out. Truth dare, double Dare was [00:30:00] about finding your tribe during the AIDS era. 

It took people many years, to figure out that hit that Traffic beat was about gay men trying to find their joy while they were running away from hiding from the danger that's. It's about having happiness, about having sex hit that perfect beat.

And the verses were about growing up and the preachers telling you that you're wrong and your family's telling you that you're wrong and you're supposed to be like everybody else. Well, I truth dare double dare you to be yourself. And it's such a simplistic idea, but it was so powerful to me.

And so, those songs hit me differently because my coming out was fraught, but not that fraught. I didn't suffer violence because of my [00:31:00] coming out.

I suffered psychological fear of AIDS and getting sick 

Andy Gott: It's so important that we recognize as the generations go on, that this history that we talk about, this queer history really wasn't that long ago at all. And you write beautifully on your Instagram about various topics.

You cover things like body image and body shaming. But I've read a few of your posts where you talk about aids and I've also read this beautiful quote where you say, My neck only gets stiff when I feel like kids don't recognize that blood on the pavement that they walk upon. And I found that a very stark image.

And I don't think anyone is saying, don't have your joy, don't have your fabulous pride parties and fun but we do need to recognize what was happening not too long ago at all. And who isn't here as a result.

Larry Flick: Yes, yes. One of the things that [00:32:00] people of my generation are happy about is now, which is very to the stuff that's going on with like conservatives and all of that. It's so much easier now. But when I hear people say, that was then, this is now I do get angry. 

I get very angry because I can give you the names of countless men and women who gave their lives so you could actually be obnoxious enough to say that was then this is now. 

And the fact you don't recognize that life is cyclical and that bad patterns are more likely to be repeated than good patterns shows how pampered you've been by my hard work.

Would you risk your life to save someone [00:33:00] else's knowing that you were gonna die already knowing that you were gonna die? You know, so many of the, the people that I fought with during my active years were people who knew their time was near the end. 

they were committed to making sure that nobody suffered the way they were.

I was lucky I was and still am a HIV negative man. I don't know how that happened to be completely candid, but it did. But I was arm in arm, shoulder to shoulder with those people. You know, for every person who embraces, you know, the non-binary and gender fluidity and all of these new ways of identify identifying their gender, there are people who don't get it.

And there are people who are still very separatist. And I'm here to say if it were not for the lesbian population, the death of gay men would've quadrupled because the women fought when the men couldn't. God bless every lesbian[00:34:00] on the planet during the, the, the fight for HIV education and, research and resources because they were able to go on the days when the guy who was wasting couldn't get out bed.

Andy Gott: I would love to hear why you selected. Boys keep swinging by David Bowie.

Larry Flick: The first time I saw that video, I was very young and it kinda frightened me a little bit because Bowie performed with a face that was kind of menacing. But once I got passed that I listened to the song, I realized that it was a mainstream rock nod, you know, to me, you know, everybody's like, bow, bow Bowie was, but to be honest with you, I don't think he was, and I kind of don't care.

I don't care 

what I do. What I do care about is that he was the king of the [00:35:00] others. He was the king of all of us who existed under fringes of acceptability. And that song was him looking directly at guys like me and saying, keep swinging. 

And I loved it. And I loved the fact that although he was really you know, I mean he did the drag really well.

He could have had a fabulous career as a drag queen. The old-fashioned act of, you know, drag queens used to close or act ripping up their, smudging their must, their lipstick to identify their maleness. That's what I was meaning earlier when I said, 

you know, back in my day, drag was an act of masculinity.

So he did that. And again, You can be the biggest girls blouse in the neighborhood if you wanna be,

but you could [00:36:00] still be a boy.

And the fact that it wasn't a gender fuck with the lyrics, only with the images of the video, I mean, that song could have been about, mods.

It could be, it could have been about, you know, oi boys. It could have been about, any male bonding faction audibly. But he chose an image that was undeniably queer and that made him my number one favorite rockstar forever, till this day. 

Andy Gott: Did you ever interview David Bowie?

Larry Flick: I interviewed him twice

Andy Gott: Okay, 

Larry Flick: I, I tell him all the things I just told you.

Andy Gott: I love that. 

Larry Flick: Yeah, telling Bowie what I just told you meet him, he says very emotional because he wasn't sure how that song was gonna be received when he put it out.

He just knew that he wanted to play with the idea of gender and the patriarchy of what's male and what's not male. And [00:37:00] he had heard many times about how it anthem, for him to say, you know, that means a lot because. I couldn't have dreamed that that would be what the song would happen to be.

And to be able to say that to and hear and say that back was very powerful, very moving. He was a lovely man and he was a visionary. He was talking to me about MP3s and streaming and all these things before they were even a full concept.

Andy Gott: I don't doubt that. But from your idol to mine, I believe you've interviewed Madonna. Is it nine times

Larry Flick: Nine times. I'm telling you, the scariest person I've ever interviewed. 

I'm here to tell you, she is awesome.

She is awesome. The first time I interviewed her was for the Erotica album, I was the dance music editor at Billboard.

I had just started to become well known in the music business. I was very good friends with Shep Pettibone, who produced a [00:38:00] lot of her records around that time. He used to have an annual birthday party in July on the roof of his penthouse, excuse all of us. And I scored an invite. It was the hottest in a town.

And he said, I think she's coming because we're working together. They were in the process of recording Erotica.. She turned up. I was with my boyfriend at the time and we were very smooch boys and we were dressed in, in semi-leather gear cause we were gonna go to the Eagle after this party. And she broke the ice. I never saw her. And we were just enjoying the view from his building, from his roof. And I said to him, you know, we should just go. She's not coming. And we started and she would, you just,

Andy Gott: Oh my gosh. 

Larry Flick: and I whipped my head around and there she is. Seriously, all you two have been doing is making out the entire time I wanna see gay men. Fuck. So fuck, 

Andy Gott: Did you remind her of that interaction in the later years to come?

Larry Flick: I did. And she was [00:39:00] like, I hope you're not still with that guy cuz he was a loser but actually the last time I, I mentioned it to her was Ray of light because she was having baby fever, right? Lordes had just been born. And I said, oh my God, I think I'm having baby fever too.

And she was like, you have a boyfriend, don't you? And I'm like, yeah, but it's not the same one. And I said, you remember him? Right? The guy before I say it, smoker in leather. Yeah, he was a loser. No, don't have babies with him. And I'm like, oh, no, . I found this, this beautiful Welsh guy. And you know, she was like, great be with him.

The thing about Madonna is she's a tough interview. If you ask her a question that she could answer with a yes or no, she will. She demands intelligence and imagination from her, questionnaires. And the last time I interviewed her was for Rebel Heart.

And and we finished and, and you know, we've talked on in person and we talked on the phone.

This time it was in person and I [00:40:00] just went, whew, that was good. And she said, what was that for? And I'm like, it's just, you know, you're a tough interview. I don't say that in a derogatory way, just, you know, you make me do my best. And she says, Good. Can I tell you why? I'm glad to hear that.

And I'm like, yeah. And she said, every word that we just recorded is going to be dissected and 

criticized 

if you're going to, and you're also, you're gonna get tons of attention for it, aren't you? And I'm like, oh, yeah. And she said, if that's the case, I deserve something in return. And what I deserve is intelligence.

And I said, you're right.

She's also the only artist I've ever written down my questions for. I generally don't write questions down, but she scares me so much that I always write the questions down.

Andy Gott: I think it's a tricky balance because we know that she's one of the world's most famous Leos. We know that she loves [00:41:00] the attention, but also like a shark in water. She also smells blurred when it comes to weakness. So

you would need to go in there being your relaxed but strong self.

Larry Flick: I'll quote Liz Rosenberg, my very, very close friend who used to be her publicist, and she was like, she walks into room saying, bitch, I'm Madonna. You have to walk in room and say, I'm Larry. 

What? And which is very hard to do. I don't think I've ever successfully done that. But you have to come in and be, I know who I am.

I know what I'm talking about. 

And she loves, I mean, obviously she loves hanging out with queer people, and if you could find the queer influences in her music, all, she really asks, like any other artist in the world that you've listened to her record, and she loves when people pick out the queer references of her music because they're not always so obvious.

Andy Gott: Larry, we, you went on to have an illustrious career at Billboard Magazine and Sirius xm, but I am keen [00:42:00] to know what was the last new song that you were excited by?

Larry Flick: The last new song I was excited by 

I still am a 14 year old girl listening to records and getting excited 

by 

it. But actually, you know what I really love? I love Street Violence by Tom Rasmussen, and I think I like it because, you know, we've talked a lot about, femininity, masculinity, and how confident men as I identify, play with it. Now, tons of British artists. I don't think he identifies as cis male, I think he identifies as queer gender queer or fluid.

But street violence first of all, he's got a great club group, but also the imaging on the track and of the record is very, it's what British would say. Taking the piss outta Marys, and it's like all these [00:43:00] exaggerated muscles and it look like they're falling off his body.

And, and it looks, it looks like he's somewhere between trying to decide if he's gonna keep this masculinity or if gonna throw it trash. And I love that. Fact that's, Still questioning. And then also it feels like this fascinating gateway between my generation and his

Andy Gott: Absolutely.

Larry Flick: right, because the imaging is very, clone culture, right? Thick porn stash, you know, pasta poppers, we're listening to divine, , that kind thing. And this whole kinda post-AIDS post gender, it's all just ugly out there.

And Tom is one of those artists who finds beauty in the ugly. And I live 

for that because as much as I love a shiny, glossy song, I live for artists who can find beauty [00:44:00] anywhere.

Andy Gott: That is possibly the most perfect place to wrap up. All I have to say is Larry Flick, you are queer and thank you very much for your tracks.

Larry Flick: Was an absolute thrill. An absolute thrill. I could talk for hours and hours and hours.